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 Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:25 pm
We all know they want to implement PvP in the future. The nature of how is unknown, however for the sake of discussion I'm going to assume it'll be instanced in the Coliseum, though I'd like to see it integrated in at least one Quest in the future. I'm wondering what you guys think about using power-ups in this instance. It stands to reason they'd be allowed, but I am wondering if they should be limited, specifically Revive (theres nothing imbalanced about Double Orb or G'hi Amp). On one side you have these arguments:
a) Power-ups being unrestricted = reason to actually buy power-ups, since PvP would presumably have a bit of challenge in it against competent players).
b) If the users have the power-ups, they should be allowed to use them. Standard gameplay isn't very challenging so while power-ups like Revive are useful in the SS right now, there's no real NEED to buy them except to support zOMG!. Again, they would want to use them in PvP, so there's an argument that since they paid for them, they should be allowed to use them where it's actually useful.
c) Since power-ups are no longer soulbound and are purchasable on the MP, they are technically accessible to every user.
On the other, you have these arguments:
a) People can't afford infinite power-ups and it associates gold and Gaia Cash with success in the arena.
b) It takes skill out of the gameplay.
c) It's really frustrating to be attacking someone and you're out of stamina and they have a Supercharger. If they have more power-ups than you and are competent enough to bring good rings and use them effectively, they can outsurvive you, assuming they time the use right.
It seems like a tricky thing to balance. Personally I suggest having a mode with no power-ups and one with power-ups (that gives different badges or prizes to encourage people to play, maybe?). The one with power-up mode should have a limit on x power-ups a minute to stop people from just spamming Superchargers and Cure, additionally with a possible hard cap on power-ups you can use per arena run to make people ration them? Revive absolutely needs a separate cap, even if that's 0; a possibility is that it's banned and you're allowed to use it like a 'Continue' option / extra life so many times to prolong your run. Revive has a lot of charges and I can see runs taking forever if it's unrestricted, alternatively it just becomes a battle of who has the most Revive charges left...
Food for thought, anyway. I hope this is okay as a discussion thread. I'm tired of thinking about this by myself so I would really appreciate some brainstorming. heart
- Custom rulesets for instances (e.g. toggle power-ups on and off, restricting their usage, etc.) and a bit more on PvP implementation
Red Kutai
The way I've always imagined PvP goes sort of like this:
Player A walks into the Coliseum 'Lobby', and walks up to some kind of board/counter/etc., and sets himself up a PvP 'room'. When creating the room, he gets a number of options; things like a CL cap (which would simply auto-cap, like instances), different modes if available ('Capture the Flag', et. al.), a 'Friends Only' option (or, possibly, a 'Password Protected' option), and a toggle for Powerups. He selects the rules he wants for his PvP room, and when he's done, it's added to the list.
Player B walks into the Coliseum 'Lobby', and goes to the same board/counter/etc. - except, he checks for available 'rooms' before making his own. He's able to look over the rules for all the individual 'rooms' listed, and he decides he'd like to face Player A. He clicks the 'Challenge' (or whatever-it-is) button, clicks through the obligatory confirmation pop-up, and both players receive a red text announcement on-screen that they're being transported into the Arena.
From there, it's zOMG! as we know it; there would probably be a countdown once both players are actually present in the Arena, to make sure they're starting at the same time, but beside that, the game would simply follow the rules outlined when the room was created (which could be as simple as suppressing both players to CL 5.0, disabling Powerups, or as outrageous as enabling the environmental 'power-ups' gataka brought up recently). It makes it impossible for players to harass each other with Challenges, it makes sure that players never feel as though they were treated unfairly (as both players agree to the rules before the match starts), and it still allows for lots of different playstyles.
But, more to the point, yes; the option to use powerups in PvP is important, but the ability to disable them is important as well. Different players have different definitions of what a 'fair' fight is, and any PvP system created would need to accomodate as many of those definitions as possible...
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 10:33 pm
The way I've always imagined PvP goes sort of like this:
Player A walks into the Coliseum 'Lobby', and walks up to some kind of board/counter/etc., and sets himself up a PvP 'room'. When creating the room, he gets a number of options; things like a CL cap (which would simply auto-cap, like instances), different modes if available ('Capture the Flag', et. al.), a 'Friends Only' option (or, possibly, a 'Password Protected' option), and a toggle for Powerups. He selects the rules he wants for his PvP room, and when he's done, it's added to the list.
Player B walks into the Coliseum 'Lobby', and goes to the same board/counter/etc. - except, he checks for available 'rooms' before making his own. He's able to look over the rules for all the individual 'rooms' listed, and he decides he'd like to face Player A. He clicks the 'Challenge' (or whatever-it-is) button, clicks through the obligatory confirmation pop-up, and both players receive a red text announcement on-screen that they're being transported into the Arena.
From there, it's zOMG! as we know it; there would probably be a countdown once both players are actually present in the Arena, to make sure they're starting at the same time, but beside that, the game would simply follow the rules outlined when the room was created (which could be as simple as suppressing both players to CL 5.0, disabling Powerups, or as outrageous as enabling the environmental 'power-ups' gataka brought up recently). It makes it impossible for players to harass each other with Challenges, it makes sure that players never feel as though they were treated unfairly (as both players agree to the rules before the match starts), and it still allows for lots of different playstyles.
But, more to the point, yes; the option to use powerups in PvP is important, but the ability to disable them is important as well. Different players have different definitions of what a 'fair' fight is, and any PvP system created would need to accomodate as many of those definitions as possible...
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:02 pm
I like the idea of custom ruleset instances. I imagine some would evolve to be more popular/standard/commonly accepted, but there'd be room for creativity, customisation, and accomodating what each player thinks is fair. I hadn't thought about incorporating things like Capture the Flag :O
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:21 am
That capture the flag thing brings to mind a whole new dimension of PvP. Build a larger arena (maybe in one of the other towns) that takes up multiple screens. Go Crew-v-Crew and attempt to destroy the opposing team's Flagstand while defending your own! Battle options could include "summoning" various Animated to support your team.
Like in traditional CtF, if a player is dazed in the enemy's territory, they'll be transported to a "Null" jail. Another player from their team can raid the jail and free the trapped crewmates. I guess Revive can either avoid Jail or get you out quickly (though you'd still be vulnerable behind enemy lines) Being dazed in your own turf sends you to your team's recovery room and you can rejoin the battle quickly.
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:45 pm
I'd rather disagree with a Null Jail since that is easy to abuse, like any other game with jails. (I freaking hate surf maps) I'd much rather instead add a respawn timer that will take you back to your base, a screen or a few before the flag-stand. One thing I'd add on CTF gameplay is... well, monsters in the middle of the arena. Small fry. Just stuff to collect Rage on, to make battles more Epic, and to give people a reason to clash on other spots that isn't just mass defending the flag from speedsters. Actually, clashing elsewhere is something that would be much needed. The enviroment would need to both prevent and incentive players from speeding to the opposite flag, forcing the other team from turtling on base. Monster, ALLIED monsters, are terribly needed. I'd add "Control points" which slowly heal those who stand on it and control it, or spawn a few monsters either after a while after the previous mob dies or when it changes its ownership, or do other effects. And then there's the subject of alternate paths. The point is making capturing the flag directly HARD, while slowly advancing and holding your ground easier. Of course, if you send everyone towards a particular path, the other will be completely unguarded, and a pair of the other team's crew can get past easily. Here's a mockup that summarizes the idea above. It features static monster groups, and two types of control points. http://i55.tinypic.com/2nibotf.jpg~Big stars are null crystal the plays are sent to with locked rings 15 seconds after they die. Rings can be changed in the screen holding these. Other teams will be blocked from entering this screen. ~Small Stars are the "flags". These can even be like the kikis and if dropped, they will slowly try to move back on their own back to their base. ~Green Star will slowly, like, by an amount equal to CL, heal Hp per second. These take 40 seconds with a player from a team that doesn't own it for it to be captured. Two players will take 20 seconds. 3 will take 13.3333 seconds. And so on. If a player from the other team steps on it, capture is canceled. When these change owners, a red warning comes on everyone's chat, and ownership can be seen on the minimap. ~Yellow stars will fasten cooldown of rings of a player from a team that controls it, while he stands on it. It always takes 15 seconds to capture, regardless of how many players are standing on it. These will not warn when they change owners, nor you can see on the minimap. ~Brown circles are monsters, belonging to the team it is closer to base of. The larger the circles, the more dangerous the monsters are. Full circles have cc effects, and slow down abilities. Empty circles only have monsters that do regular attacks. The smaller the circle, the faster the monsters in it re-spawn. ~Middle path is where the action is going to happen. The path takes longer due to a easily protected screen that has to be navigated to cross, and it has a control point to allow to form an attack force in the middle ground. ~The side paths are dangerous, and are meant for quick guerrilla warfare, mostly invisible to the middle path. The control points on those side-paths allow one or two infiltrators to restock on long re-charge rings, such as Fleet Feet and Turtle. ~Center screen also has a "sneak past" path, if someone thinks they can pull it off and wants to flank the other team while they're distracted when they start climbing to their base. This is placed on the wall hardest to get to, so players would need a moment of confusion to make it. In the end, it's a hard to defend terrain, with 3 paths for 6 people, and very long range based. for a very tactical defense and organization. A leader will be needed, at least for the initial plan, and change of approach mid-game to surprise the opposing team is a good suggestion. A good team can easily roll over the other. Letting your entire squad die rather than retreating a bit is an awful idea, specially if they're on your base fighting monsters. Actually, if anyone ever made a zOMG! PvP, I wouldn't mind seeing them make a DotA or League of Legends, or Warriors of Newearth, whatever game that does this you know about, type of gameplay! I'd make a mockup to explain, but I want to hit submit already.
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Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 7:19 pm
That's actually fairly similar to what I had in mind, though I'm not sure what you mean by abusing the jail.
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 2:32 am
Thard_Verad That's actually fairly similar to what I had in mind, though I'm not sure what you mean by abusing the jail. uh... Trust me, extremely punishing inactivity is not the way to go when you have limited teams. Gimping down on a dead player's power, sending him back to one end of a map, or powering the one who did the killing blow, on the other hand, is slightly more acceptable. The game's main winning objective changes completely when that happens.
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 9:18 pm
Hm, I was just going by the traditional CtF rules as I know them. If you're in enemy territory, they can tag you and send you to jail. On friendly ground you're safe. So you're only thrown in jail if you get dazed while attempting to recover the flag, not while defending your own.
Perhaps that could be another facet of "optional rulesets" for CvC matches?
~ ~ ~
Game types:
Simple deathmatch (no powerups - last one standing wins)
Scored deathmatch (each daze scores a point)
Monster hunt (player/team that kills the most Animated wins)
Capture the flag (as we've discussed)
King of the hill (one or more scoring zones for players to capture and hold during the match)
... Others?
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