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| Jinchuriki puppets retain traits of their demon? |
| yes? State your reason. |
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21% |
[ 3 ] |
| no? State your reason. |
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78% |
[ 11 ] |
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| Total Votes : 14 |
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 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:04 pm
We had an argument break out between two crew members, BB and Gregar, over whether or not Jinchuriki who are killed and turned into human puppets may retain traits the rpc had while still alive. Now this wouldn't have been much of a problem but you two argued in a public venue! If there is an issue like this, it should be brought into the crew thread to be discussed by crew. As it stands there is no ruling on whether or not they retain any traits from the demons in such an event. Before anyone contradicts the former sentence, it isn't a rule if it isn't in the rulebook. I only ask that the crew state their reasons for or against and not to argue over who's correct or not.
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:31 pm
Alright then, I'll start out with my side.
If someone were to make a human puppet of a jinchuuriki, then if we allow them to keep demon traits, that puppet would be allowed to use a Chakra Cloak, Demon Jutsu, etc. A demon is not like a bloodline, where the user of such has been innately born with the abilities the bloodline grants, thus making it apart of them. A demon is an entirely separate entity that has been forcibly sealed within the person, and besides the impact on chakra coils, is not a part of the person in any way. In order to use any demon powers, the host has to borrow them from the demon itself, or let the demon take over their body.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but do puppets have souls, even human ones? I'm gonna go with no. Now, when a demon is sealed, it is not the soul of the demon that is sealed within the person? Yes, yes it is. Now, it is a known fact that if the host dies, the demon dies as well, but the human's body still remains, with all its genetic makeup still intact (actually, that kinda depends on how he/she died, but thats beside the point) for a puppet master to make a puppet out of. Now, would a soulless puppet be able to call out to the soul of a demon that does not live inside it anymore to give it things like a chakra cloak, demon jutsu, etc? No, it would not.
Finally, when a demon host dies, it is our responsibility to give the demon to a new RPC, to continue the RP. How would we explain to someone's Yonbi RPC that the guy they are fighting has a puppet with every Yonbi move because that person was the Yonbi jinchuuriki? The only alternative would be to restrict giving out a demon whose previous host was turned into a puppet, and that is just downright unfair to the RPers.
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:40 pm
Im pretty much done with this argument and have contacted Zane to resolve this. I personally feel Greg bias towards puppets, as well as his feeling of the Demons being all powerful is the only issue here. Just like he feels puppets shouldn't even get Doujutsu cause the eyes would turn to wood.
Also the only making this such a big problem is you Duck. I have the right to voice my opinion crew or not, I also feel every little instant doesn't need the entire crew perspective on it. I refuse to par take in this discussion on the fact it would just prove every single thing needs the entire crew opinion which it doesn't Because that just slows everything down and nothing gets done.
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:01 pm
I would like to correct a misconception: While I personally do not like puppets, that is not why I am against them having Demon Jutsu. I brought this up because I truly do not think it would be possible, and I made very valid and logical arguments to support that. I would like to hear your side as well, but since you seem to be unwilling to do so, I will allow zane to read both our arguments, and make the decision then. If anyone else has comments on this issue, I ask that you make them heard, here and now, no matter what side they may support.
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:29 pm
I have placed this thread up not because the topic is a big issue but because the argument took place in a public venue where every member of this guild could see. It is every member's, crew or otherwise, right to their opinion. They are entitled to it and are even encouraged to say their opinion. However, the crew is not meant to be viewed by the members as a group that is split on decisions but as a body in unison. Obviously, you two disagree on the subject and that is perfectly normal. @Gregar: What is chakra? According to Narutopedia it is: Quote: Chakra (チャクラ, chakura) is essential to even the most basic jutsu; it is a mixture of the physical energy (身体エネルギー, shintai enerugī) present in every cell of the body and the spiritual energy (精神エネルギー, seishin enerugī) gained from exercise and experience. Now, how was Gaara, without the use of Shukaku, capable of manipulating sand still? Chakra permeates throughout the body and by manipulating the demons chakra throughout his body, Gaara's body adapted to it. If we assume that the seal of every Jinchuriki is meant to allow one to use the demon's energy in the event that it is necessary, than we can assume that it may affect every Jinchuriki on a genetic scale. Now I'm neither a proponent for it or an opponent against it but logically speaking it is possible within the naruto verse for that to happen. @bb:Not every little thing needs every crew member's input but if a crew member has an issue with something, they get their say on the subject and cannot be simply shut out. I'm not saying you can't voice your opinion but on the same note you are attempting to tell Gregar he can't. I only asked that you both give a side, and for other crew members input then as a mediator I could assist with ironing out the issue.
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:35 pm
I'm going to say I'm against a puppet having demon abilities. Why? Well, first, as Greg said, the demon vacates the host body when they die, and unless you're a puppet master turning yourself into a human puppet, the host died before the process began, and the demon has fled. Now, if the host knew demon jutsus, yeah, the puppet should be allowed to use them. The host does gain an affinity towards the demon's abilities in life, and that does not disappear in death, using Gaara as an example. However, if someone made David into a puppet, the most they should be able to do with his sand is to use sand jutsu. No manipulation of the sand, because that is the host's will over the sand. Not to mention it's severely OP.
Now, another reason against puppets retaining demons, because that could come up in the argument, is that it's the host's living will that keeps the demon contained in most cases. When the host dies, that will dies, and the demon is released. There is no avoiding that.
Demon jutsu? Yes.
Demon abilities? No.
Demon itself? Hell no.
~
However, I honestly don't think this should be contained to only crew. It seems like a simple thing, but perhaps we should place it in the debate thread, and see what people think?
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:40 pm
The Shukaku is not NEEDED to use sand, it just makes it a heck of a lot easier, even in the anime/manga. Besides, since Sand is a registered element in this guild that anyone can have, and out Ichibi HAS sunaton, the point is moot. But what I'm trying to prevent, really, is the use of chakra cloaks and demon jutsu being used by a puppet. The ability to invoke a chakra cloak and use demon-specific abilities is only available if the demon takes control of the host's body. Since the soul of the demon would no longer be in the puppet, a soulless construct, the demon could not control the body, therefore could not provide the host with its specific jutsu.
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:54 pm
I believe the basic jutsu should be retained. The host learns how to use them in their lifetime, and the demon's chakra changes their own to be capable of using them. Anything the human was capable of before becoming a puppet is normally retained when transformed, which would include their extra demon elements and jutsu thereof.
Chakra cloaks, and abilities gained directly from the demon, such as those listed in the personal rules however, should not be retained, as those require the demon the be in the host to use. They aren't gained by the host through life, but rather borrowed from the demon.
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:00 pm
Hinote Tosatsu I believe the basic jutsu should be retained. The host learns how to use them in their lifetime, and the demon's chakra changes their own to be capable of using them. Anything the human was capable of before becoming a puppet is normally retained when transformed, which would include their extra demon elements and jutsu thereof. Chakra cloaks, and abilities gained directly from the demon, such as those listed in the personal rules however, should not be retained, as those require the demon the be in the host to use. They aren't gained by the host through life, but rather borrowed from the demon. Well, beyond Sunaton for the ichibi (which is an element anyone can learn), the five elements for Gobi, and Yoton for the yonbi, who else can used Demon "Jutsu"?
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:10 pm
Gregar828 Hinote Tosatsu I believe the basic jutsu should be retained. The host learns how to use them in their lifetime, and the demon's chakra changes their own to be capable of using them. Anything the human was capable of before becoming a puppet is normally retained when transformed, which would include their extra demon elements and jutsu thereof. Chakra cloaks, and abilities gained directly from the demon, such as those listed in the personal rules however, should not be retained, as those require the demon the be in the host to use. They aren't gained by the host through life, but rather borrowed from the demon. Well, beyond Sunaton for the ichibi (which is an element anyone can learn), the five elements for Gobi, and Yoton for the yonbi, who else can used Demon "Jutsu"? I would say that this leads to the demons needing a revamp like the bloodlines are undergoing. In the case of what stays? I would say that the Unique Skills would stay with the user. Which means that the unique skills may need to be changed slightly.
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:26 pm
"Demon jutsu" would be the demon's personal jutsu. So long as the user has learned them, a puppet made from them would be capable of using those techniques. Things such as the Ichibi's sand manipulation or Yonbi's spewing lava would be demon abilities, which wouldn't be given to the puppets. I'm sure all of the demons have some unique jutsu, and more can be made.
They do need a revamp though, as Duck mentioned. I already mentioned it in the crew chat.
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:41 pm
Personally I feel the demon puppets should keep the jutsu, unique skill, and the chakra pool. If we went just off jutsu and skills it would make a Kyuubi puppet usless since it doesn't have ether of those lol
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:44 pm
bb3000ae Personally I feel the demon puppets should keep the jutsu, unique skill, and the chakra pool. If we went just off jutsu and skills it would make a Kyuubi puppet usless since it doesn't have ether of those lol Human puppets don't have their own Chakra pool, they allow access to other bloodline's however. The only case in which they retain their own separate chakra pool is when an RPC puppeteer turns themselves into a human puppet.
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:48 pm
duckmasta bb3000ae Personally I feel the demon puppets should keep the jutsu, unique skill, and the chakra pool. If we went just off jutsu and skills it would make a Kyuubi puppet usless since it doesn't have ether of those lol Human puppets don't have their own Chakra pool, they allow access to other bloodline's however. The only case in which they retain their own separate chakra pool is when an RPC puppeteer turns themselves into a human puppet. Well ok, then demon puppets need the ability to at least go demon cloak or a Kyubbi puppet would be usless...
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:57 pm
Demon cloak is only possible if the demon is in the host. The cloak is just a manifestation of the demon's chakra, so if the chakra is no longer there, it wouldn't be possible to make the cloak.
Not every RPC needs something special and awesome in the case that they are made a puppet. A puppeteer should know enough to only make puppets that are going to be worthwhile, so if the Kyuubi would be useless as a puppet, don't make a Kyuubi puppet.
bb, what you're asking for, is basically that we allow human puppets made from a demon host, to still be a demon host, which is ridiculously OP. Just having access to the techniques the character had in life is plenty for any puppet, they don't need special aspects just because they were a demon.
Mostly off topic here, but I don't believe a puppet should be capable of using doujutsu either. Why? Because even if the puppet did use the doujutsu, what good is it going to do? If the puppet's Byakugan picks up on an enemy sneaking up behind the puppeteer, is it going to shout out a warning? Spin around and attack? Will the puppeteer be able to see through the Byakugan too, and see the enemy? No. None of that. A doujutsu relies upon the user actually having it in his head, so what good is it going to do a puppet? The puppet can't act on it's own, it's being controlled and has no free will. That doujutsu, is useless.
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