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 Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:48 pm
This thread shows it best - Reflection is dangerous stuff. Personally, I don't think Reflection was ever intended to invalidate the existence of difficult enemies, which is exactly what it's doing. With the introduction of new Reflection abilities, problems like this would only be more common. Yes, there are ways to design around it, but they would all involve simply patching over the flaws that Reflection leaves open. So, the first question for you: is Reflection, as a mechanic, overstepping its intent?
Since I obviously believe it is, I can think of a couple ways to fix it; which one is most appealing to others, I'll wait for the feedback from.
1.) Have Reflected damage 'originate' from the Reflector. That is to say, have Reflected Damage apply CL-based changes as though the target was attacking the attacker. This would mean that Reflecting attacks from enemies with a CL of 2.0 or more higher than you would always deal 1 damage, much as attacks you originate against them. As a side effect, it would mean that Reflection deals more damage to enemies with a CL lower than yours. For reference, a CL 10.6 enemy(the powered-down Queen, for instance) would still take 30% less Reflected damage than it would right now. This change would likely have no effect on Deflection.
2.) Give high-level enemies a chance to overpower Reflection/Deflection. I'd probably maintain it on the same rate as above - with enemies with a CL of 2.0 more than you completely negating your Reflection/Deflection abilities. This could, additionally, imply that Reflection abilities are more effective against lower-level enemies. For reference, the current maximum achievable Reflection rate is 14.5% (Improbability Sphere and Teflon Spray, both RR4) - with this change, the Reflection rate against a CL 10.6 enemy would be 10.255, which is slightly less than a 30% reduction (due to the sequential application of Reflection).
Thoughts? Comments? Additional possibilities? I'm not looking so much for ways to fix the Queen or other big enemies, specifically, as for ways to make Reflection less inherently dangerous...
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:22 pm
It's really lame when you can solo a tough boss with reflection faster than you can with attacks. Especially when it's safer - you can focus 100% of your efforts on healing and kiting. It's been somewhat of an issue ever since Qixter's ring rebalance. I even heard Swarf say that they would probably have to tone it down eventually, but of course they never got to it.
Anyways, I think reflection's damage should just be capped based on the player's CL. Reflection can't do more than 20 x CL damage. That number might be complete garbage, so don't quote me on it ;x
That fixes my main issue with reflection, but it doesn't completely address the problem we've been seeing recently. I'm actually okay with that, though. Reflection would still speed up the deaths of very high CL enemies, but not in a way that's completely broken. And the devs shouldn't be including very high CL animated if they aren't okay with the remote possibility of them being defeated.
Does anyone else feel like the SS/EB update is sloppy and a bit contrived? D;
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Atrash the Squidmonger Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:32 pm
Capping the damage makes sense, as does negating or reducing damage reflected based on higher CL enemies (maybe 50% reduction of damage reflected for every 1.0 extra CL the enemy is. Against a 10.0, an 11.0 would only get 50% the power of the attacks they throw out, a 12.0 would only get 25%, etc. It still might be somewhat unfair for level equal animated which are more glass-cannon-y, but maybe those could just be given a higher CL label.
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:53 pm
Atrash the Squidmonger Capping the damage makes sense, as does negating or reducing damage reflected based on higher CL enemies (maybe 50% reduction of damage reflected for every 1.0 extra CL the enemy is. Against a 10.0, an 11.0 would only get 50% the power of the attacks they throw out, a 12.0 would only get 25%, etc. It still might be somewhat unfair for level equal animated which are more glass-cannon-y, but maybe those could just be given a higher CL label. I'd rather the devs not use CL as a fix to these types of problems Dx. It really limits what they can and can't do.
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:40 pm
Yes, a very sticky issue indeed. Before I address Reflect specifically, perhaps there should be some in-game limiter on dropped rings. While the CL of a ring can still be based on the CL of the enemy who dropped it, no ring can be found above CL 9.5 (seems like a good number to me)
I propose a third option to the reflection issue: Have reflected damage based entirely on the CL of the attacking enemy. This means that the Shift Equation (1+[a-d]/2) is discarded for a Reflected attack. Let's drag out the trusty ol' Data Fluff.
Give it a base power of 10.
At CL 10, its power is 100. At 20, the power is 200.
With the Shift Equation, a CL 20 Data Fluff gets a 6x multiplier against CL 10 players. (all CL 20 monsters do, by the way)
This means that our friendly Data Fluff could ordinarily land hits of 1200 damage against an unbuffed player.
This ALSO means that a reflected hit causes 1200 damage to the fluff.
I say drop the CL modifier, and have the damage based as if the monster simply attacked itself. Equal CL means 1x multiplier.
This would greatly increase the chance of a high-CL monster to survive against a Reflective crew. In fact, the monster would last almost 6x as long.
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:34 pm
Thard_Verad Yes, a very sticky issue indeed. Before I address Reflect specifically, perhaps there should be some in-game limiter on dropped rings. While the CL of a ring can still be based on the CL of the enemy who dropped it, no ring can be found above CL 9.5 (seems like a good number to me) I propose a third option to the reflection issue: Have reflected damage based entirely on the CL of the attacking enemy. This means that the Shift Equation (1+[a-d]/2) is discarded for a Reflected attack. Let's drag out the trusty ol' Data Fluff. Give it a base power of 10. At CL 10, its power is 100. At 20, the power is 200. With the Shift Equation, a CL 20 Data Fluff gets a 6x multiplier against CL 10 players. (all CL 20 monsters do, by the way) This means that our friendly Data Fluff could ordinarily land hits of 1200 damage against an unbuffed player. This ALSO means that a reflected hit causes 1200 damage to the fluff. I say drop the CL modifier, and have the damage based as if the monster simply attacked itself. Equal CL means 1x multiplier. This would greatly increase the chance of a high-CL monster to survive against a Reflective crew. In fact, the monster would last almost 6x as long.
That actually sounds pretty good; it's what I was really trying to get at, to begin with, but without all that nasty 'making Reflection useless' rubbish. Much more sound. 3nodding
As for the drop issues, a flat cap stops working once the CL cap increases. Once we can reach CL 20.0, should we be confined to CL 9.5 ring drops? Probably not. Should the 20.6 Queen still be dropping CL 18.6 rings in a CL 10.0 instance? I'd say 'no'. I'd probably suggested instituting an 'approximate CL' rating for each area, and simply capping drops in that area based on that number. Instances are easy, since they already have level caps, and the areas outside them would generally have similar levels. Thus, CL 20.0 enemies in CL 10.0 areas would only drop up to (to use your example) CL 9.5 Rings, whereas in CL 20.0 areas they would drop their normal CL 18.0 Rings. If KJ summoned CL 20.0 enemies in Barton, they wouldn't drop anything more than a CL 1.5 Ring (assuming the area is capped at CL 2.0). Sound about fair?
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:05 am
OMFG Taylor It's really lame when you can solo a tough boss with reflection faster than you can with attacks. Especially when it's safer - you can focus 100% of your efforts on healing and kiting. It's been somewhat of an issue ever since Qixter's ring rebalance. I even heard Swarf say that they would probably have to tone it down eventually, but of course they never got to it. Anyways, I think reflection's damage should just be capped based on the player's CL. Reflection can't do more than 20 x CL damage. That number might be complete garbage, so don't quote me on it ;x That fixes my main issue with reflection, but it doesn't completely address the problem we've been seeing recently. I'm actually okay with that, though. Reflection would still speed up the deaths of very high CL enemies, but not in a way that's completely broken. And the devs shouldn't be including very high CL animated if they aren't okay with the remote possibility of them being defeated. Does anyone else feel like the SS/EB update is sloppy and a bit contrived? D;
Now might be the time to fix it, then. whee
We could probably make a whole other thread on the shortcomings of the updates, honestly. There are much more natural ways to incentivise mobbing than just throwing in a "You have to mob!"-barrier. I mean, I supported the fact that they were changing sEB because it meant that the instance would be more like they had intended it - but I'm not so sure that that's what they actually did...
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:44 pm
Red Kutai Thard_Verad Yes, a very sticky issue indeed. Before I address Reflect specifically, perhaps there should be some in-game limiter on dropped rings. While the CL of a ring can still be based on the CL of the enemy who dropped it, no ring can be found above CL 9.5 (seems like a good number to me) I propose a third option to the reflection issue: Have reflected damage based entirely on the CL of the attacking enemy. This means that the Shift Equation (1+[a-d]/2) is discarded for a Reflected attack. Let's drag out the trusty ol' Data Fluff. Give it a base power of 10. At CL 10, its power is 100. At 20, the power is 200. With the Shift Equation, a CL 20 Data Fluff gets a 6x multiplier against CL 10 players. (all CL 20 monsters do, by the way) This means that our friendly Data Fluff could ordinarily land hits of 1200 damage against an unbuffed player. This ALSO means that a reflected hit causes 1200 damage to the fluff. I say drop the CL modifier, and have the damage based as if the monster simply attacked itself. Equal CL means 1x multiplier. This would greatly increase the chance of a high-CL monster to survive against a Reflective crew. In fact, the monster would last almost 6x as long.
That actually sounds pretty good; it's what I was really trying to get at, to begin with, but without all that nasty 'making Reflection useless' rubbish. Much more sound. 3nodding
As for the drop issues, a flat cap stops working once the CL cap increases. Once we can reach CL 20.0, should we be confined to CL 9.5 ring drops? Probably not. Should the 20.6 Queen still be dropping CL 18.6 rings in a CL 10.0 instance? I'd say 'no'. I'd probably suggested instituting an 'approximate CL' rating for each area, and simply capping drops in that area based on that number. Instances are easy, since they already have level caps, and the areas outside them would generally have similar levels. Thus, CL 20.0 enemies in CL 10.0 areas would only drop up to (to use your example) CL 9.5 Rings, whereas in CL 20.0 areas they would drop their normal CL 18.0 Rings. If KJ summoned CL 20.0 enemies in Barton, they wouldn't drop anything more than a CL 1.5 Ring (assuming the area is capped at CL 2.0). Sound about fair?
Everything hinges on just how the CL cap is raised. A couple months back, I sent a suggestion to [JK] on the matter. My idea was to create "enhanced" versions of the existing rings as new items on the site. Regular CL 10.0 rings could be enhanced by Nicolae if you provide the materials and service fee. The regular rings remain as they currently are, while the enhanced rings make use of the new orb type to level beyond 10.0. (My philosophy for the suggestion was to change existing code as little as possible, adding the new stuff on top) If this suggestion becomes reality, then it's a matter of which ring type an Animated will drop. Regular ring drops can cap at 9.5, and enhanced rings will only drop in CL 10.0+ areas (if they drop at all). That's not to say the devs won't go in a different direction, of course. If our existing rings are modified to allow for higher CL caps, then I'd go with your curve instead.
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