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 Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:51 pm
So, sEB's on-the-out - for some it's good riddance, for some it will be missed. What it boils down to is that it was never intentional, so it's pretty hard to argue that it needs to stay. Inasfar as that goes, I am glad they're 'fixing' it.
But, that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with Speed - quite the contrary, in fact. The only issue is that zOMG! doesn't have a spot for it, right now - but that's easy enough to fix, eh? wink
sDMP - This would be the easiest solution, simply because DMP already exists. Admittedly, though, DMP is pretty short - we may have to wait for House on the Hill content for sDMP to be viable. Regardless, my thinking was to have three 'keys' - one on the ledge to the east, with the Galoshes; one down where Stoocie's hiding, with a Purse; and the last one at the top of the stairs, with the OMFG - akin to the switches for sEB. Normal DMP runs tend to clear all these areas anyway - the Speed version would simply involve the Crew splitting up into 3 groups to gather the key pieces, before they move on to the OMFGWTF. After defeating the OMGWTF, the party would head through the gate and... Ideas? sweatdrop
Durem Mines - We talked about this sort of thing for a while in this thread - essentially, the idea was that the Crew was being chased by a curtain of magma, and thus had to rush through to the finish of the instance. The magma would cut off the optimal routes, meaning that if you weren't quick enough, you were forced to take the long way home. With enough maze-like elements, Root effects, and other obstacles, it has a lot of potential for a forced Speed instance.
G-Corp - This is one that just occurred to me - in classic Mad Scientist Load-Bearing Boss form, complete with a countdown and everything. Naturally, for the instance to be repeatable, it can't really self-destruct; but there's nothing to stop them from flooding the facility a deadly neurotoxin (G-Virus, anyone?) to clear the players out. There is one problem, though - a Load-Bearing Boss doesn't work very well in zOMG!. After the boss is defeated, the escape is easy - just leave Crew. Perhaps have the timer hinge on a mini-boss, making players rush to the real boss? Or, having something important (Boss Reward/Plot Device?) back at the beginning of the instance, to give the Crew a reason to make their way back through. This one will probably require a little more thought before it's able to go anywhere, but I like the theory behind it, at least...
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:10 pm
Red Kutai
Durem Mines - We talked about this sort of thing for a while in this thread - essentially, the idea was that the Crew was being chased by a curtain of magma, and thus had to rush through to the finish of the instance. The magma would cut off the optimal routes, meaning that if you weren't quick enough, you were forced to take the long way home. With enough maze-like elements, Root effects, and other obstacles, it has a lot of potential for a forced Speed instance.
G-Corp - This is one that just occurred to me - in classic Mad Scientist Load-Bearing Boss form, complete with a countdown and everything. Naturally, for the instance to be repeatable, it can't really self-destruct; but there's nothing to stop them from flooding the facility a deadly neurotoxin (G-Virus, anyone?) to clear the players out. There is one problem, though - a Load-Bearing Boss doesn't work very well in zOMG!. After the boss is defeated, the escape is easy - just leave Crew. Perhaps have the timer hinge on a mini-boss, making players rush to the real boss? Or, having something important (Boss Reward/Plot Device?) back at the beginning of the instance, to give the Crew a reason to make their way back through. This one will probably require a little more thought before it's able to go anywhere, but I like the theory behind it, at least...
That feel when you don't need to read a trope, you already know it... So basically, to cut comments short and to sum up those two, this is about making more Gauntlets? Because I'd be down for that. Also, make the boss reward only after you successfully escape the area. Problem with people leaving the crew solved. I don't see any need for proper explanation. We also get 30k+ gold from EB out of nowhere, don't we?
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:26 pm
Quintafeira12 Red Kutai
Durem Mines - We talked about this sort of thing for a while in this thread - essentially, the idea was that the Crew was being chased by a curtain of magma, and thus had to rush through to the finish of the instance. The magma would cut off the optimal routes, meaning that if you weren't quick enough, you were forced to take the long way home. With enough maze-like elements, Root effects, and other obstacles, it has a lot of potential for a forced Speed instance.
G-Corp - This is one that just occurred to me - in classic Mad Scientist Load-Bearing Boss form, complete with a countdown and everything. Naturally, for the instance to be repeatable, it can't really self-destruct; but there's nothing to stop them from flooding the facility a deadly neurotoxin (G-Virus, anyone?) to clear the players out. There is one problem, though - a Load-Bearing Boss doesn't work very well in zOMG!. After the boss is defeated, the escape is easy - just leave Crew. Perhaps have the timer hinge on a mini-boss, making players rush to the real boss? Or, having something important (Boss Reward/Plot Device?) back at the beginning of the instance, to give the Crew a reason to make their way back through. This one will probably require a little more thought before it's able to go anywhere, but I like the theory behind it, at least...
That feel when you don't need to read a trope, you already know it... So basically, to cut comments short and to sum up those two, this is about making more Gauntlets? Because I'd be down for that. Also, make the boss reward only after you successfully escape the area. Problem with people leaving the crew solved. I don't see any need for proper explanation. We also get 30k+ gold from EB out of nowhere, don't we?
That was the other method I forgot - opening the Gauntlet up. I'm not sure what we'd have to do for that to be reasonable, but it's worth looking at as an option. Regardless, I wouldn't consider it mutually exclusive with the other options, anyhow.
And something like that would work, yes; or requiring the players to go back to the entrance and lock the doors, to prevent the deadly neurotoxin from leaking out into the surrounding areas, as deadly neurotoxins are wont to do. Granting the reward for getting the doors locked before the timer runs out, rather than for actually defeating the boss, sounds reasonable enough...
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:08 pm
What about making a Speed Shallow Seas? Perhaps just some of the later areas - but you reach them from a different direction, going towards a different goal (maybe even backwards toward Shallow Seas itself, where the boss could roam around the whole map). Cut off access to the keys and doorways and such that would take you to EB, and change around the animated and chests some.
You'd start in a new map or so, replacing the Robo Caves perhaps (and perhaps being somewhat similar in style), dropping or otherwise getting to the ledge where the Grunny Sub Commander is. He's not here and the chest thing is just decoration (an animation in the spot where the chest would be, so no way to exploit it or trick it to open and give the key to further Sea Lab areas). You go back through the ruins, with somewhat different animated around, finally arriving in Shallow Seas. Lorelei is there as a miniboss made more in the interests of Speed playing (I'm not sure what, but different tactics and such). Marshall is not there. There is a boss somewhere in there (maybe it runs from you, maybe it chases you through the rest of it, and you have to "hide" at one place and watch it pass by you - then you can regroup and be ready to take it on). Maybe there's some switch-like things in there (do several things - maybe kill several animated which hide in various areas - simultaneously in several different areas, with the boss wandering around randomly, threatening the split up crew [especially if they are slow about it]).
There'd be very few new art assets needed - just some boss animations, some new animated or objects to use as "switches", and one smaller map area. There'd be most of the stuff - even the areas and animated - that speed players are used to. There's a reason to be fleeing, the need to coordinate, splitting up the group or otherwise quickly dealing with switch like objects, etc. There's also some new aspects like a roaming boss that might interest other people.
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Atrash the Squidmonger Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:00 am
Memory Haunts You First of all: THANK YOU!! For this, and for some earlier posts you have made about sEB. At a certain point during the Big Explosion of sEB Hatred a week before the gold nerf came into existence, I was so sad about all the hate that was going around and all the dissing and fighting, and then I saw you post that you BELIEVED that some people actually played the game that way for the fun of it, and that meant a lot to me. And now, warning: wahmbulance Huge, HUGE wall of text coming up in answer to your questions!! First of all, there is the anticipation as the whole crew rages up and drowns, standing ready in the first screen of the Shallow Seas, buffing up. The moment where the goofing and joking around stops for a split second as everyone expects that first fleet. And then we fleet! And like an arrow from a bow, the whole crew takes off simultaneously. There is a certain beauty in total coordination, when a crew is so well-attuned to each other that they all reach the tail of the sea horse at the same moment; and when the second fleet can follow almost seamlessly. It is incredible fun to me to try and make my avatar run as fast as possible, some people say they can do it with their eyes closed, but I really can't: for me it is still a matter of watching where I click and not being hampered by any obstacles that are in the way such as corals, plants, stones and the occasional seaspout and bug patrol. And then there is the first real obstacle: getting past those dratted fluffs on the seahorse tail! There you really have to pay attention: it will not do to only look at yourself and speed on, you have to make sure that the whole bunch follows along! No crew member left behind: if someone gets fluffed, it is indeed the responsibility of the others to free them. This can usually be done quite easily by quickly casting "wish" on the fluffstuck crewmember, so that the aggro of the fluffs gets redirected to the wisher for a second, giving the "wishee" time to unroot and flee the fluff scene. If this fails, ah well, then you might have to kill a few fluffs altogether. Either way, the challenge is: run as fast as you can BUT make sure everyone else is running too, and make decisions in a split fraction of a second to solve any problem that may occur. The same challenge will occur again at the patch of fluffs on the way to the chests, unless you go up and over of course. Every crew member is responsible for keeping an eye on each other and making sure that EVERYONE gets into that chests screen as quickly as possible. As a leader, you have the extra challenge of not clicking those chests too soon, but also not too late: ideally as soon as the whole bunch has entered the screen. And in the mean while, everyone should already be prepared to move on!! And so, it goes on. Let me try to summarise what I like about this:
- Having to be very alert for what happens to your crew members. Are they following? No? Save them! Is their health still ok?
Of course you have to do that in a normal run as well. But in sEB, it goes FAST and therefore you have to be a 100x more alert and your reactions need to be really fast too, and you have to make decisions in a split second. That is challenging.
- IF everyone is doing perfectly, then I enjoy the beauty of the total coordination. A bit like one can enjoy the beauty of a choreography or a song one if performing with a choir.
- IF not everyone is doing so perfectly, then I enjoy the challenge of pulling them through in spite of things that go wrong.
- IF we ALL goof up... well then it is good for a laugh! And like in the old song my grandma used to sing: you just pick yourself up, brush yourself off and start all over again!!
Also. Many people say that "well what's the fun in running away from enemies, I want to kill them!!" That is nice for them, and I do enjoy killing some enemies from time to time as I will describe in a bit when I get to the parts about Lorelei and EB, BUT!! There is also something very exciting about DODGING enemies! Often, when the question is posted: "what is your least favourite enemy on zOMG!??" many people will answer: "Barnacle fluffs! I hate them!!" Are you kidding me? I LOVE barnacle fluffs! It's to say... I love ESCAPING from the barnacle fluffs. I love outsmarting them, being too fast for them, confusing them. It's an equally good feeling to just run, run, run with a HERD of anchor bugs and sea spouts on your heels. Or to speed right through them, whammo!! and catch as little damage as possible. The same thing happens when you speed a switch. And yes, as I think someone else already brought up, it is a lot like the "Gauntlet" feeling, too. So why is it perfectly okay to apply this "dodge and run" technique to finish the gauntlet quest, but not to outsmart the mobs in the sealab and in SS? So basically, it is the feeling that there are a large number of enemies around that can do damage and that can impede you (rooting effect of the fluffs, scare effect of the robofish) combined with a lot of lifeless obstacles along the way (stones, plants, narrowness of some pathways), so you really have to look what you're doing and be really alert to make it through and to do it as fast as possible. Those factors make for a perfect, challenging speeding instance, oh, and while we're dreaming about possible instances that would focus on this kind of speedy dodging, Red, I would like a timer. smile I would LOVE a timer and a leaderboard to go with it. And then, the other part of sEB that I really like, is the vigor with which we slam down the few enemies we attack. The Queen, and of course the End Boss. The Queen is not very challenging. Sure, she tries to put people to sleep, but she is not very successful at that, and usually during a queen battle I don't even have to heal. For my taste, the queen could be a lot stronger, or possibly be assisted by a TON more minions (and tiny bubbles razz ). The End Boss. First, the tail. For the people who haven't tried sEB: look at the videos. Look at that thing TRASHING around!! Soo much more exciting than the occasional swat it gives when you attack it slowly with long range! Also, when you attack it with long range, the chances of receiving any damage are very low. But if you charge into it and pummel it relentlessly and mercilessly with swords, you get a lot of incoming damage, which gives you the challenge of keeping each other alive. Sometimes that leads to very near-misses and that makes it exciting. And the same goes for the body, but more so, because the body has the sleep effect, too. So I'm sitting behind my computer, seeing my crew mates' health going down, trying to cast wish on them but not able to because I've been put to sleep, and I'm like "come on come on come ON!!!!" And you constantly have to balance attacks and healing, make wise decisions of how many stamina to use for what. And you have to make those decisions FAST! The head, I don't have much to say to that. It's sort of boring, no offense to the devs but... it really is. A bit of an anticlimax, really, especially if someone takes care of the mines. Seeing that it is the final part of the game, the head should really be more dangerous and challenging. By dealing more damage, or by more mines, or few extra flocks of grunnies, I don't know. But something, to make it less of an anticlimax.
This is by far the best explanation I've seen for the benefits and goals of a Speed run, so I figured it'd be nice to have it here as a reference. More importantly, I'm hoping to draw you in here for some more feedback on the concept - whenever you get a chance, at least... sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:13 am
Atrash the Squidmonger What about making a Speed Shallow Seas? Perhaps just some of the later areas - but you reach them from a different direction, going towards a different goal (maybe even backwards toward Shallow Seas itself, where the boss could roam around the whole map). Cut off access to the keys and doorways and such that would take you to EB, and change around the animated and chests some. You'd start in a new map or so, replacing the Robo Caves perhaps (and perhaps being somewhat similar in style), dropping or otherwise getting to the ledge where the Grunny Sub Commander is. He's not here and the chest thing is just decoration (an animation in the spot where the chest would be, so no way to exploit it or trick it to open and give the key to further Sea Lab areas). You go back through the ruins, with somewhat different animated around, finally arriving in Shallow Seas. Lorelei is there as a miniboss made more in the interests of Speed playing (I'm not sure what, but different tactics and such). Marshall is not there. There is a boss somewhere in there (maybe it runs from you, maybe it chases you through the rest of it, and you have to "hide" at one place and watch it pass by you - then you can regroup and be ready to take it on). Maybe there's some switch-like things in there (do several things - maybe kill several animated which hide in various areas - simultaneously in several different areas, with the boss wandering around randomly, threatening the split up crew [especially if they are slow about it]). There'd be very few new art assets needed - just some boss animations, some new animated or objects to use as "switches", and one smaller map area. There'd be most of the stuff - even the areas and animated - that speed players are used to. There's a reason to be fleeing, the need to coordinate, splitting up the group or otherwise quickly dealing with switch like objects, etc. There's also some new aspects like a roaming boss that might interest other people.
That sounds almost like a retcon of your "triumphant return" after normal EB - into something more akin to my third suggestion (the timed escape one).
In fact, it rather reminds me of the opening task from Final Fantasy 7; so much so that I'm keen on having the player rescusing Marshall whose gotten himself trapped on the escape. Then again, it also makes me want to include a world-shattering explosion cutscene, but I think that's slightly outside of the game's reach, at the moment. Maybe if we did those Manga-style cutscenes we talked about... sweatdrop
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Atrash the Squidmonger Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:21 am
Red Kutai Atrash the Squidmonger What about making a Speed Shallow Seas? Perhaps just some of the later areas - but you reach them from a different direction, going towards a different goal (maybe even backwards toward Shallow Seas itself, where the boss could roam around the whole map). Cut off access to the keys and doorways and such that would take you to EB, and change around the animated and chests some. You'd start in a new map or so, replacing the Robo Caves perhaps (and perhaps being somewhat similar in style), dropping or otherwise getting to the ledge where the Grunny Sub Commander is. He's not here and the chest thing is just decoration (an animation in the spot where the chest would be, so no way to exploit it or trick it to open and give the key to further Sea Lab areas). You go back through the ruins, with somewhat different animated around, finally arriving in Shallow Seas. Lorelei is there as a miniboss made more in the interests of Speed playing (I'm not sure what, but different tactics and such). Marshall is not there. There is a boss somewhere in there (maybe it runs from you, maybe it chases you through the rest of it, and you have to "hide" at one place and watch it pass by you - then you can regroup and be ready to take it on). Maybe there's some switch-like things in there (do several things - maybe kill several animated which hide in various areas - simultaneously in several different areas, with the boss wandering around randomly, threatening the split up crew [especially if they are slow about it]). There'd be very few new art assets needed - just some boss animations, some new animated or objects to use as "switches", and one smaller map area. There'd be most of the stuff - even the areas and animated - that speed players are used to. There's a reason to be fleeing, the need to coordinate, splitting up the group or otherwise quickly dealing with switch like objects, etc. There's also some new aspects like a roaming boss that might interest other people.
That sounds almost like a retcon of your "triumphant return" after normal EB - into something more akin to my third suggestion (the timed escape one).
In fact, it rather reminds me of the opening task from Final Fantasy 7; so much so that I'm keen on having the player rescusing Marshall whose gotten himself trapped on the escape. Then again, it also makes me want to include a world-shattering explosion cutscene, but I think that's slightly outside of the game's reach, at the moment. Maybe if we did those Manga-style cutscenes we talked about... sweatdrop
I guess it is sort of like that, although I don't know what boss would be following you, with EB down and all. Also, how would we get access to it at that area? Maybe have the access point to it be in Buccaneer's Boardwalk, perhaps with the Kraken as the boss chasing you (but a different new boss might be better). Another idea for a Speed location that I'm surprised we didn't think of already: Speed Hive World. We have a lot of room in OA, so I'd advise just placing another portal - this one opened up by the Gaians in Black or other such groups to attack the hive world itself (just using the same portal but another option in the menu would work too). You go through and you teleport into the tunnels of the Hive World. Running around and avoiding some moderate swarms (for a speed-er, a very short bit - just like getting to the tail in SS) suddenly you get to a more empty screen where a guy suddenly appears (he's using Predi-pup style cloaking devices that they reverse engineered). He says that he needs you to take his mission (for some reason - maybe he's injured or maybe he has to do something else) to kill the Queen (or, if that's already taken for a different expansion of Hive World, some other similar attack). To get into the Queen's chamber, he says, you'll need to blow open the doors, basically. He gives you a bomb to help this, but "the only ones I have are timed bombs"... and it starts ticking away. You have to get it to the spot the guy told you to put it and then stand outside its blast radius (it will insta-daze if it explodes while you're still going along or if you place it in but don't make it far enough away). There's sleep, root, and fear based attackers all along the paths. The walls might have tentacles which attack. Maybe include some AoE knockback at spots, so tight-knit crews have to be careful and regroup. Include some really fast animated - not Speed fast, but Coyote Spirit type fast, enough to outrun normal or even partially buffed up Gaians, and to keep in firing range of Speeders longer, to add a bit of combat during fleet's at some places. The Queen herself would be EB-esque, like the tail. Get some reasons for fast melee fighting, AoE attacks, etc. Have various defenders pop up in waves that try to sleep, fear, or otherwise hamper the players. Deathroaches (which either provide a hassle which needs healing [due to their strong AoE kamikaze damage], or something the team needs to run away from quickly, evading them until they can get sniped off [give them low health] by other teammates), healing Lightning Bugs (keeping the Queen alive and kicking, especially popping out with other animated swarms - so players have the chance to focus on surviving and letting the Queen heal more, or sweeping out the Lightning Bugs but putting themselves in danger), Landstriders (with good knockback power and the need to get in close range to avoid the stronger AoE ranged attack), etc. We've already got a lot of Hive animated which work well with Speed and which require coordinated teams and styles, and the atmosphere of the place works pretty well.
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:25 am
I'm really glad to see that people actually understand why speed can be fun. I'm also thrilled that my post from the other topic was deemed useful enough to be quoted here. I truely did my best to describe the speed experience vividly to try and convey why I used to play it so passionately.
Speeding came to have an unfairly bad reputation on this game because for many people, both the lovers and the haters, it had the connotation of "speedily gathering gold", rather than "speeding for the rush and the challenge". This was directly caused by the fact that the End boss gave out so much gold; if the gold reward at the end of a speed run would not have been so high, hardly anyone would ever have batted an eye at the fact that we speeded - then again, the interest for speeding would probably have been a lot lower in the first place, since it would have been limited to those of us who actually enjoyed it for the intrinsic game aspect of the speed and not for the high reward per time unit.
I have never meant any disrespect to the creators of the animated by leaving these animated alive. Some people state that, if you don't kill all animated, you don't appreciate them being there in the first place. This is incorrect. I DO appreciate the animated being there. If they weren't there, it would have been no challenge at all to speed through them. No risk = no excitement.
The suggestions here are absolutely lovely; some of them already give me a speed rush in anticipation, by just reading them!! I will try to find some ways to contribute to them some time (hopefully soon) in the future.
As for a really short-term thing (since all of the other suggestions look like they would take quite a bit of time before ever being implemented), I would really like to plead for opening up the Otami gauntlet, possibly with a timer. I have always thought it sad that you could do that run only once. Of course it is impossible to tell on beforehand how many people would actually play it, but I sure would! And I am tempted to believe that, given there would be a timer and if in any way possible a leaderboard of some sorts, many others would rise to the challenge.
Actually, come to think of it, I think doing this would be a perfect test-case to find out how many people are truely interested in the genuine, pure challenge of speeding-and-dodging, and are willing to play for the mere competition and not for the gold reward.
(There was someone in the forum who said that the Gauntlet IS open to redo as often as you want. It isn't. I just went there, and iron-hard vines are blocking my passage. Maybe it's open to the people whose Rin-and-Lin thing was glitched, but the problem is, I did my R&L quests swimmingly, up to receiving the gift of underwater breathing, and ever since I've successfully completed my gauntlet, I have not been able to return (except when crewed with someone who had the quest open - I sometimes scout Otami for the exact purpose of finding someone to do Gauntlet with).)
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Atrash the Squidmonger Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:45 pm
Memory Haunts You Speeding came to have an unfairly bad reputation on this game because for many people, both the lovers and the haters, it had the connotation of "speedily gathering gold", rather than "speeding for the rush and the challenge". This was directly caused by the fact that the End boss gave out so much gold; if the gold reward at the end of a speed run would not have been so high, hardly anyone would ever have batted an eye at the fact that we speeded - then again, the interest for speeding would probably have been a lot lower in the first place, since it would have been limited to those of us who actually enjoyed it for the intrinsic game aspect of the speed and not for the high reward per time unit. Eh, Speed SS was pretty popular, again for the gold aspect (the chests mostly, before they were nerfed and the EB reward was increased). I think the reason why Speed in its various forms has gotten such a bad reputation is because no place has been made to intentionally reward Speed - this is why these ideas in this thread would be so good. The incentives for Speeding at the moment (aside from the fun of Speeding) is all the extra rewards. Instead, an area made for Speed would have the incentives either of (or both combined): - Gold rewards that are calculated for Speed usage (so they might seem a slow low reward for those who don't do as much of a Speed run, but this would be okay because it would be an instance where the place wasn't intended to be as rewarding for non Speed players). Maybe very low reward drops for animated in the fighting sections too (although maybe with a couple roaming animated which drop useful items - if a speed crew wants to get those, they'd have to also speedily react to it whenever they found it, no matter where it was in the run). - Failure or added difficulty for lack of Speed. Being chased by a danger or enemy, needing to get something to a certain place in a certain amount of time, etc. This would give respectable and reasonable rewards for Speeders, separate the sheep and the goats so to speak, and also elevate the non-greed-based Speeders as proven to be skilled for the fun of it, rather than for their own benefit.
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:45 am
Atrash the Squidmonger Memory Haunts You Speeding came to have an unfairly bad reputation on this game because for many people, both the lovers and the haters, it had the connotation of "speedily gathering gold", rather than "speeding for the rush and the challenge". This was directly caused by the fact that the End boss gave out so much gold; if the gold reward at the end of a speed run would not have been so high, hardly anyone would ever have batted an eye at the fact that we speeded - then again, the interest for speeding would probably have been a lot lower in the first place, since it would have been limited to those of us who actually enjoyed it for the intrinsic game aspect of the speed and not for the high reward per time unit. Eh, Speed SS was pretty popular, again for the gold aspect (the chests mostly, before they were nerfed and the EB reward was increased). I can't believe I forgot that *again*. I knew that... people have been telling it to me over and over, and yet, it keeps slipping my mind. Quote: I think the reason why Speed in its various forms has gotten such a bad reputation is because no place has been made to intentionally reward Speed - this is why these ideas in this thread would be so good. True. They make me bounce off the walls just by reading them. biggrin Hopefully one of these days my brain will start working again and I'll have something productive to add.
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