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 Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:44 am
I'm sure there are other layers that can be uncovered by you all but Mary Magdalene would be the first apostle. She first witnessed the resurrection in not only canonical gospels but also in heretical texts as well. She was the first to share the "good news" with the other disciples. In the Gospel of Mary she is said to have been given special teachings by Christ (now lost due to the document being poorly preserved).
Now women have contributed greatly to development of Christianity and have been long over looked. Most of Paul's disciples were women.
So what sort of meanings can we get from Mary being the first apostle? What significance would that have on your spiritual growth and development? From a mythic perspective, what messages could be conveyed in this event being recounted? Any other topics of discussion related to this you would like to bring up?
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:20 am
"Most of Paul's disciples were women"?
I'd like to know where you got that piece of info from.
(You know i question Paul on grounds that you may percieve as incorrect, so this may me very interesting to me.
I think i remember something about the the man being the head of the woman .....)
More direct on topic:
To me, it is clear that Mary was an Apostle, ... but the first?
Or do you mean "first" as in "most valued/important"?
If this were to be understood by more "officcial" churches, then they would understand something that several atheists has already understood:
Man and woman are far more equal than the current versions of the bible admits.
Mythical .....
According to archeology, unless i'm misinformed, it seems that the first divinity to be worshipped, was a kind of MotherGodess.
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:10 pm
Karen King is my source for that claim.First in the first person told about in Scriptures and Heretical documents to witness the resurrection. In Gospel of John and the Gospel of Mary she is said to have been given secret teachings. The Gospel of Mary is believed to of had those teachings but most of the document is lost to us and only fragments of it remain. I don't know if it means she was the most important or not. Take it to mean what you will make of it. Okay... Galatians 3 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. A sadly over looked verse by many. I'm sorry I guess I wasn't clear in what I was asking. If this account of Mary being the first to witness the resurrection is taken as an allegory, or an "Aesop's Fable" if you will, what sort of message or meaning could be being conveyed here? Example: What is Mary representing, a person, an archetype, a psychological mindset, etc?
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:20 pm
Hm, this is interesting indeed ......
So i'll go straight to the topic now:
There may be two reasons, as i see it, as to why Mary was the first after the ressurrection:
* The Mundane: She visited the tomb, while the others were too heartbroken/afraid/overcome with anguish to do so.
* The Symbolic(as i see it): She was still regarded as "lesser" by even the other diciples, and for that, she was given the courtesy of being first.
.... If one wants to look for even deeper symbolism ...... one just have to extrapolate on what it may mean for christians today ...
I mean, why settle for one representation?
She may actually represent Herself, The Woman(or the Femme, even), the mindset, and so on. All of them, not one only.
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:51 pm
Tiina Brown * The Symbolic(as i see it): She was still regarded as "lesser" by even the other diciples, and for that, she was given the courtesy of being first. Hmmm.... That's interesting. Quote: .... If one wants to look for even deeper symbolism ...... one just have to extrapolate on what it may mean for christians today ... Don't hold back now. Go deeper. Quote: I mean, why settle for one representation? She may actually represent Herself, The Woman(or the Femme, even), the mindset, and so on. All of them, not one only. I'm sorry I didn't mean just one. razz
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Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:12 am
rmcdra Tiina Brown * The Symbolic(as i see it): She was still regarded as "lesser" by even the other diciples, and for that, she was given the courtesy of being first. Hmmm.... That's interesting. Quote: .... If one wants to look for even deeper symbolism ...... one just have to extrapolate on what it may mean for christians today ... Don't hold back now. Go deeper. Quote: I mean, why settle for one representation? She may actually represent Herself, The Woman(or the Femme, even), the mindset, and so on. All of them, not one only. I'm sorry I didn't mean just one. razz ....I'm forgetting that others don't see the connectins almost automatically as i do ...... sweatdrop I mean, "Don't hold back now. Go deeper." .... To me, symbolical things are only important if ... when, it has practical effects. In this way, "deeper" means that it has effects on several things: Not just on religion, but all things religion has affected, even indirectly, like politics, morals, practical psychology, sociology .......
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Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:25 am
Tiina Brown ....I'm forgetting that others don't see the connectins almost automatically as i do ...... sweatdrop I mean, "Don't hold back now. Go deeper." .... I get you now. I misread what you had wrote. Quote: To me, symbolical things are only important if ... when, it has practical effects. In this way, "deeper" means that it has effects on several things: Not just on religion, but all things religion has affected, even indirectly, like politics, morals, practical psychology, sociology ....... And the "practical" that I am personally looking for is what it says about who we are so I can come to a better understanding of the enigmatic I AM. I don't think what we are looking for is too different from each other.
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Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:44 am
rmcdra Tiina Brown ....I'm forgetting that others don't see the connectins almost automatically as i do ...... sweatdrop I mean, "Don't hold back now. Go deeper." .... I get you now. I misread what you had wrote. Quote: To me, symbolical things are only important if ... when, it has practical effects. In this way, "deeper" means that it has effects on several things: Not just on religion, but all things religion has affected, even indirectly, like politics, morals, practical psychology, sociology ....... And the "practical" that I am personally looking for is what it says about who we are so I can come to a better understanding of the enigmatic I AM. I don't think what we are looking for is too different from each other. Are you sure you understand what i meant now? I mean, i'm not sure i understand what you mean, .... And also, to me, i may be interested in mystical and mythical things, but when it comes to symbols ... a lot of symbols are no longer sybols to me, it is rather a cause to an effect. I ... have, in fairly gruesome ways, not the worst, but bad enough, been forced to realize several things about myself. How can this help you understand the "I AM"? To me, the "I AM" is no enigma. Often, i sadly feel that i am not, but when i write things like this, i feel that i am. So, i may have misunderstood what you mean .....
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Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:16 am
Tiina Brown Are you sure you understand what i meant now? I mean, i'm not sure i understand what you mean, .... To be honest I feel that way too. I don't mean any disrespect but is English your first language? I sometimes wonder if there is a bit of a language gap between us. Quote: And also, to me, i may be interested in mystical and mythical things, but when it comes to symbols ... a lot of symbols are no longer sybols to me, it is rather a cause to an effect. Okay I don't get what you mean by cause to an effect. Are you saying that they describe a process to achieve some sort of effect. If that is what you mean then yes, I do agree with you there. If not, then please clarify. Quote: I ... have, in fairly gruesome ways, not the worst, but bad enough, been forced to realize several things about myself. Adversity test us and shows what type of people we are. Quote: How can this help you understand the "I AM"? Because I believe that I am human and have a limited perspective on the I AM. I believe though we have different shapes and forms, we have the same core and same general make up. That wisdom comes from the most humble and unexpected of places. Quote: To me, the "I AM" is no enigma. You are quite blessed than many of the greatest mystics have struggled with defining the I AM. I say that it's enigmatic in that when you start defining the I AM, you start limiting what the I AM is. Often in the process of defining the I AM we mistakenly come with a false definition of the I AM and when we start describing the I AM with this false definition, we create something that is not the I AM and false definition tries to take place of the I AM. If you know yourself and are honest with yourself this isn't a big problem but few people know themselves nor are we often honest with ourselves. It often takes a lifetime for most to get to this point. Some people are able to get to this point early on in their life, but this is rare. Quote: Often, i sadly feel that i am not, but when i write things like this, i feel that i am. So, i may have misunderstood what you mean ..... You might have. I get the feeling that we are talking about the same thing but we have different ways of describing it that the other person is not familiar with. Like that we are both talking about how to fry eggs but I'm speaking in Russian and you are speaking in English... if that makes sense.
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Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:05 am
rmcdra Tiina Brown Are you sure you understand what i meant now? I mean, i'm not sure i understand what you mean, .... To be honest I feel that way too. I don't mean any disrespect but is English your first language? I sometimes wonder if there is a bit of a language gap between us. Quote: And also, to me, i may be interested in mystical and mythical things, but when it comes to symbols ... a lot of symbols are no longer sybols to me, it is rather a cause to an effect. Okay I don't get what you mean by cause to an effect. Are you saying that they describe a process to achieve some sort of effect. If that is what you mean then yes, I do agree with you there. If not, then please clarify. Quote: I ... have, in fairly gruesome ways, not the worst, but bad enough, been forced to realize several things about myself. Adversity test us and shows what type of people we are. Quote: How can this help you understand the "I AM"? Because I believe that I am human and have a limited perspective on the I AM. I believe though we have different shapes and forms, we have the same core and same general make up. That wisdom comes from the most humble and unexpected of places. Quote: To me, the "I AM" is no enigma. You are quite blessed than many of the greatest mystics have struggled with defining the I AM. I say that it's enigmatic in that when you start defining the I AM, you start limiting what the I AM is. Often in the process of defining the I AM we mistakenly come with a false definition of the I AM and when we start describing the I AM with this false definition, we create something that is not the I AM and false definition tries to take place of the I AM. If you know yourself and are honest with yourself this isn't a big problem but few people know themselves nor are we often honest with ourselves. It often takes a lifetime for most to get to this point. Some people are able to get to this point early on in their life, but this is rare. Quote: Often, i sadly feel that i am not, but when i write things like this, i feel that i am. So, i may have misunderstood what you mean ..... You might have. I get the feeling that we are talking about the same thing but we have different ways of describing it that the other person is not familiar with. Like that we are both talking about how to fry eggs but I'm speaking in Russian and you are speaking in English... if that makes sense. * No, english is not my first, but i live in Sweden: English is a mandatory second, more or less, and this has been combined with reading Roleplay books, Comics, and a few actual books in english. However, If you ask a computergeek and a Lawyer to describe their jobs ..... even if they speak english, they speak so differently, they could almost as well speak greek. * Yes, a process to achive an effect. * To me, it was God all along. * I may have misunderstood .. or have i? .... what you mean with "I AM" ...... ? So, limited as it may be, how do you percive it right now? * .... Do you, by "I AM" mean the question "Who/What am i?" If so .... (* Smiles *) I just come to think about the .... is it buddhist zoan they are called? Questions that makes you think outside the box, or even to ignore things you think you must include. I, for some wierd reason, likes to define myself as a human cat. But, that do not mean, as some may think, that i guess how a cat would work as a human. No, i just do what i think and feel is proper, since if i actually is a kind of a human cat, then there is no point in guessing how to act, and if i'm not, then it is just unneccesarily silly. I know i am more complex than that, but i really don't need to know more. I exist, here and now, and that is what is important to me. To me, if you excuse my impression, it seems like humans questions and disbelives even things that should be obvious. But, perhaps that is good, or at least the path they have to walk .... * It do make sense, see my first answer.
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Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:24 pm
Tiina Brown * No, english is not my first, but i live in Sweden: English is a mandatory second, more or less, and this has been combined with reading Roleplay books, Comics, and a few actual books in english. However, If you ask a computergeek and a Lawyer to describe their jobs ..... even if they speak english, they speak so differently, they could almost as well speak greek. Okay, gotcha on that. That is probably what it is. Quote: * Yes, a process to achive an effect. Okay so then we are are on the same page. Quote: * To me, it was God all along. I get ya. Quote: * I may have misunderstood .. or have i? .... what you mean with "I AM" ...... ? So, limited as it may be, how do you percive it right now? The I AM is what my tradition teaches to be the core of each person that is a seed of God, the Great I AM. Quote: * .... Do you, by "I AM" mean the question "Who/What am i?" If so .... (* Smiles *) I just come to think about the .... is it buddhist zoan they are called? Questions that makes you think outside the box, or even to ignore things you think you must include. I, for some wierd reason, likes to define myself as a human cat. But, that do not mean, as some may think, that i guess how a cat would work as a human. No, i just do what i think and feel is proper, since if i actually is a kind of a human cat, then there is no point in guessing how to act, and if i'm not, then it is just unneccesarily silly. I know i am more complex than that, but i really don't need to know more. I exist, here and now, and that is what is important to me. To me, if you excuse my impression, it seems like humans questions and disbelives even things that should be obvious. But, perhaps that is good, or at least the path they have to walk .... The I AM is describing a part of ourselves that is foundational to the Self but often times misidentified creating a false self. Koans are very useful in contemplating this. My favorite is "If you meet Buddha on the path, kill him." Let me see if I get your koan. We each are who we are. We tend to try to live for the past or for the future rather than in the here and now. If we would stop looking "there" or "there" else we would see that which we are seeking is right in front of us. But it is that seeking that makes us human and builds us.
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Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:21 pm
rmcdra Tiina Brown * .... Do you, by "I AM" mean the question "Who/What am i?" If so .... (* Smiles *) I just come to think about the .... is it buddhist zoan they are called? Questions that makes you think outside the box, or even to ignore things you think you must include. I, for some wierd reason, likes to define myself as a human cat. But, that do not mean, as some may think, that i guess how a cat would work as a human. No, i just do what i think and feel is proper, since if i actually is a kind of a human cat, then there is no point in guessing how to act, and if i'm not, then it is just unneccesarily silly. I know i am more complex than that, but i really don't need to know more. I exist, here and now, and that is what is important to me. To me, if you excuse my impression, it seems like humans questions and disbelives even things that should be obvious. But, perhaps that is good, or at least the path they have to walk .... The I AM is describing a part of ourselves that is foundational to the Self but often times misidentified creating a false self. Koans are very useful in contemplating this. My favorite is "If you meet Buddha on the path, kill him." Let me see if I get your koan. We each are who we are. We tend to try to live for the past or for the future rather than in the here and now. If we would stop looking "there" or "there" else we would see that which we are seeking is right in front of us. But it is that seeking that makes us human and builds us. Hm, i cannot say i made an actual koan, but ... i guess it is one way to look at it. If you meet Buddah, you don't really meet Buddha, if you meet Buddah, you may have learned far less than you thought ..... Hm, i wonder if the same would hold true for Jesus .... ? Ok, i understand what you mean about I AM now ... i think: The core of each human, that may very well be God, or a part of God. ... Right? Um .... the answer to"my koan" ..... possible, since i'm not sure if it was intended as a koan .... it might be too simple ... As i didn't (consiously) mean it as a Koan, i can say what i think: * I think someone else has said it before me, but it doesn't matter who: Remember the past, plan for the future, but live in the present. * Another comment, from what i assume is of Pagan importance, something called "Charge of the Godess" ... this is my own interpretation of a small part of it, however: Know, that if you cannot find it within you, you cannot find it outside of you. * As for the .... wierd questioning that humans seems to suffer from, i have no idea if it is to be overcome, avoided, or embraced. Since i fail to understand it ... to any notable extent(?), i draw the conclusion that it may not be for me to understand .... and i am not to tell others of the possible solution. By the way, in a way, that "Charge of the Godess"-thing ties into this topic, in a way, i can mention a few ways, actually. But still, i also think of "if you see Buddah, kill Buddah". .... If more people considered that, we would have less followers, ready to follow authorities or preachers.
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Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:59 pm
Tiina Brown If you meet Buddah, you don't really meet Buddha, if you meet Buddah, you may have learned far less than you thought ..... Hm, i wonder if the same would hold true for Jesus .... ? Yes mostly, I would be inclined to agree. Quote: Ok, i understand what you mean about I AM now ... i think: The core of each human, that may very well be God, or a part of God. ... Right? Yep 3nodding Quote: Um .... the answer to"my koan" ..... possible, since i'm not sure if it was intended as a koan .... it might be too simple ... As i didn't (consiously) mean it as a Koan, i can say what i think: See how much credit I give you razz Quote: * Another comment, from what i assume is of Pagan importance, something called "Charge of the Godess" ... this is my own interpretation of a small part of it, however: Know, that if you cannot find it within you, you cannot find it outside of you. Pagan, Christian is all a blur to me. That same saying is found in canon and in heretical scriptures. Luke 17 20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you. Thomas 3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty." Quote: * As for the .... wierd questioning that humans seems to suffer from, i have no idea if it is to be overcome, avoided, or embraced. Since i fail to understand it ... to any notable extent(?), i draw the conclusion that it may not be for me to understand .... and i am not to tell others of the possible solution. Fair enough Quote: By the way, in a way, that "Charge of the Godess"-thing ties into this topic, in a way, i can mention a few ways, actually. Cool. I'm not surprised to be honest. Proverbs 8 (aka the Charge of Sophia, God's Wisdom)Quote: But still, i also think of "if you see Buddah, kill Buddah". .... If more people considered that, we would have less followers, ready to follow authorities or preachers. I agree. I think that everyone that seeks the Christ must kill him if they wish to witness the resurrection. I mean there can't be a resurrection if he's not killed and if there is no resurrection then there is no salvation.
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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:57 am
rmcdra Tiina Brown If you meet Buddah, you don't really meet Buddha, if you meet Buddah, you may have learned far less than you thought ..... Hm, i wonder if the same would hold true for Jesus .... ? Yes mostly, I would be inclined to agree. Quote: Ok, i understand what you mean about I AM now ... i think: The core of each human, that may very well be God, or a part of God. ... Right? Yep 3nodding Quote: Um .... the answer to"my koan" ..... possible, since i'm not sure if it was intended as a koan .... it might be too simple ... As i didn't (consiously) mean it as a Koan, i can say what i think: See how much credit I give you razz Quote: * Another comment, from what i assume is of Pagan importance, something called "Charge of the Godess" ... this is my own interpretation of a small part of it, however: Know, that if you cannot find it within you, you cannot find it outside of you. Pagan, Christian is all a blur to me. That same saying is found in canon and in heretical scriptures. Luke 17 20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you. Thomas 3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty." Quote: * As for the .... wierd questioning that humans seems to suffer from, i have no idea if it is to be overcome, avoided, or embraced. Since i fail to understand it ... to any notable extent(?), i draw the conclusion that it may not be for me to understand .... and i am not to tell others of the possible solution. Fair enough Quote: By the way, in a way, that "Charge of the Godess"-thing ties into this topic, in a way, i can mention a few ways, actually. Cool. I'm not surprised to be honest. Proverbs 8 (aka the Charge of Sophia, God's Wisdom)Quote: But still, i also think of "if you see Buddah, kill Buddah". .... If more people considered that, we would have less followers, ready to follow authorities or preachers. I agree. I think that everyone that seeks the Christ must kill him if they wish to witness the resurrection. I mean there can't be a resurrection if he's not killed and if there is no resurrection then there is no salvation. * I think you give me too much credit: I may fail as well(thinking of my latest attempt to help in this Guild....) * Ok, yes, it is the same, in meaning. ... And yes, i remember that part from Thomas as well, now when i think of it. * Hm, "Charge of Sophia" ..... It is not comparable to the "Charge of the Godess" that i mentioned. They speak of different things. * In this case, you may take the "kill" too literal, even if you still see it as symbolical ..... Jesus already died once, and ressurrected. If anything needs to be killed, it is the symbol of Christ, .... but i am unsure of if that symbol will ressurrect, and how .... Personally, i prefer to go by what i feel and think is proper, but .... i can't say i know (for now).
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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:25 am
Tiina Brown * I think you give me too much credit: I may fail as well(thinking of my latest attempt to help in this Guild....) Happens to the best of us. Quote: * Hm, "Charge of Sophia" ..... It is not comparable to the "Charge of the Godess" that i mentioned. They speak of different things. I know I was just pointing out that there is a divine feminine in Christianity and she does give her own charge, though it is not widely or well known by most. If you'd like to share some things from the "Charge of the Goddess" feel free to do so. Quote: "* In this case, you may take the "kill" too literal, even if you still see it as symbolical ..... Jesus already died once, and ressurrected. If anything needs to be killed, it is the symbol of Christ, .... but i am unsure of if that symbol will ressurrect, and how .... Personally, i prefer to go by what i feel and think is proper, but .... i can't say i know (for now). Am I really now? Well do share what you mean by the symbol of Christ needs to be killed? There are many symbols of Christ or rather called Christ that I think need to die. If I understand the koan about killing Buddha correctly, the message is that along the path to enlightenment you will have certain preconceptions of what the Buddha and enlightenment is. Eventually along your path you will have to dispel those preconceptions and ideas. This parallels in Christianity to how I understand the crucifixion and the process of witnessing the resurrection in my tradition. The Christ that we believe or rather think that we know because we heard from others has to be tried and killed. What remains is the resurrected Christ.
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