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 Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:32 pm
What's your thoughts on Anders' little plan at the end of the game? How do you feel about the outcome?
I tried discussing this matter with my brother and it's like I'm talking to a wall soooo I would like to see what everyone here thinks. xp
Anders put me in such a awful situation since I was originally trying to find a peaceful manner...he kind of made that one impossible haha. Anyways, if I got stuck to picking a side (like I had to do lol) I was going to pick the mages' side...since I was a mage myself and I had been supporting Anders the whole time because I believed in the freedom of the mages.
I may not have agreed with the method he used...but I understood why he did that...at least somewhat... I JUST WISH HE TOLD ME ABOUT IT!!! (though I understand why he didn't tell me either haha...I would have totally tried to talk him out of it).
Well enough about me and my story ... how did you feel about this situation?
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:41 pm
well i dont really know Anders i enjoy as a character but his methods were abit extreme and he is less annoying then sabastion (( i hate the exiled prince he annoys me )) but two of my play throughs i supported the mages then once the templars this time i will choose to support neither side if that option will work XD but this play through im a guy and Merrill is my play thing so i might wanna be nice to anders .
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Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:39 pm
Just gave me more ammo against mages. Oh how I loved killing them all twisted
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:59 am
drldrl Just gave me more ammo against mages. Oh how I loved killing them all twisted
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:23 am
Starlight Dragon drldrl Just gave me more ammo against mages. Oh how I loved killing them all twisted Lol Im harsher than the Chantry.
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:42 am
**Quite a few SPOILERS if you didn't do the companion quests (or beat the game, obviously)**
It really pissed me off! I had been helping the mages through the entire game, and time after time they showed their gratitude by screwing me over, and I was still willing to help the mages. And the entire game I'd been working for a peaceful solution for both sides. And Anders ruined it. I don't even see why he did it, other than being blinded by his extreme views. He mass murdered a bunch of innocents and sparked genocide against the mages he wanted to save. Why does he think he will be a martyr? The real martyr is the Revered Mother that he blasted into little chanter bits. On my first playthough, the pro-mage one, I just told him to get out of my sight, both times, but still sided with the mages. I thought no one could do anything stupider and more irrational, and then Orsino happened. What is wrong with Kirkwall mages? I understand that they're oppressed, and that sucks for them, but at the slightest inconvenience they're slitting their wrists and making pacts with demons. Looking back, I wish there was an option to make Anders tranquil because that's what he fears the most. And why not? You can sell Fenris back to Danarius or kill Merrill's entire clan. Why can't you do the worst possible thing to Anders, like hand him over to the templars or make him tranquil? Instead, every possible option benefits him.
All through my first playthrough I was pro-mage on almost everything, even extreme stuff. Sure, there were a few evil mages, but evil isn't exclusive to mages. Just because anyone has the potential to do evil doesn't mean we should lock everyone up. Majority of people will at least try to do the right thing if you trust them to, I think. But seriously every mage that I helped, except for Feynriel and that girl that Justice almost kills in Anders' side quest, betrayed me. Haha, by my second playthrough, I was probably worse than Fenris.
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:56 pm
See this is where the debate is going on. It's a harsh choice and I don't exactly agree with it but there's a reason why Anders did it. He's not stupid just for the sake of being stupid. The mages will never have equality in their world, no matter some of the people had believed...not unless someone takes a stand. The mages were constantly going to be thrown in the Circle or being killed for being suspected for using blood magic. That's not fair at all... and that's one of the reasons I always defended the mages and somewhat understood Anders' choice.
To make a change, a big change...unfortunately causalities get thrown into the mix. There has never been a peaceful war (though I was attempting to do so in the game haha but we all know deep down inside...that remaining neutral would have done nothing and in the long run would have caused for harm in general...). This is why Anders' did this... It looks extra bad in the present day but...it's to help mages in the future. Maybe 100 years from that date but his plan was for them to stop being pushed around anymore. The war will cause everyone to battle until the end and then after it all ... people will gradually built up another life there, where there's no templars to rule over the mages, where anyone can live among everyone. It's the dream anyways...
Oh you do know you can kill Anders right? That's what you can do to him... bleh I really dislike that scene.
Though I must agree with the Orsino part. Oh wow....did that ever piss me off. It's like these stupid Kirkwall mages don't know how to say no to blood magic stare I was a bit upset they put that in the game. It made the mages look so dumb and not worth helping....but then again the templars weren't much better.....ugh how I hate Meredith.
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:25 pm
Starlight Dragon See this is where the debate is going on. It's a harsh choice and I don't exactly agree with it but there's a reason why Anders did it. He's not stupid just for the sake of being stupid. The mages will never have equality in their world, no matter some of the people had believed...not unless someone takes a stand. The mages were constantly going to be thrown in the Circle or being killed for being suspected for using blood magic. That's not fair at all... and that's one of the reasons I always defended the mages and somewhat understood Anders' choice.
To make a change, a big change...unfortunately causalities get thrown into the mix. There has never been a peaceful war (though I was attempting to do so in the game haha but we all know deep down inside...that remaining neutral would have done nothing and in the long run would have caused for harm in general...). This is why Anders' did this... It looks extra bad in the present day but...it's to help mages in the future. Maybe 100 years from that date but his plan was for them to stop being pushed around anymore. The war will cause everyone to battle until the end and then after it all ... people will gradually built up another life there, where there's no templars to rule over the mages, where anyone can live among everyone. It's the dream anyways...
Oh you do know you can kill Anders right? That's what you can do to him... bleh I really dislike that scene.
Though I must agree with the Orsino part. Oh wow....did that ever piss me off. It's like these stupid Kirkwall mages don't know how to say no to blood magic stare I was a bit upset they put that in the game. It made the mages look so dumb and not worth helping....but then again the templars weren't much better.....ugh how I hate Meredith.
There was a possible solution though. Thrask's vision was to get everyone to live in peace. It was a noble plan, but then he got that crazy witch Grace to help him and kidnapped my brother. I mean, Carver's an a**, but leave my people alone! What does that even accomplish anyway, except for being on the losing side of a beat-down from the one person with influence who was helping them? It's like all of the mages in this game got together and said, "How can we prove to everyone that we're no threat and just want our freedom?" "Hmm... Oh, I got it! How about we summon demons and kill everyone! That should let everyone know that we're the good mages!" Especially Anders. The mages I helped kept turning into abominations. Grace and her buddies kidnapped my loved ones after I let them escape. That deranged guy who killed my Hawke's mother is backed by Orsino. But I thought, no, Anders is different. And then he blew up the Chantry.
I don't get his reasoning. Why the Chantry? I get that the Chantry's view on mages isn't exactly friendly, but it would make more sense to attack Meredith. Or the templars. But instead he starts a holy war against mages, ensuring that every semi-religious person in Thedas who wasn't already anti-mage is going to be out for mage blood. And even if he had sound reasoning, it's evil regardless because he knows that the only way for the mages to come out on top is at the suffering of everyone else. Personally, I think that part was just lazy writing. Same with Meredith's evil lyrium sword. They had to ensure that a full-blown war starts against mages for the next game as DA II is obviously leading up to something huge.
And I know that you can kill him, but it's almost better than sending him away. If you send him away, he slinks off like a coward. If you kill him, he smiles and says something about now he can go on to be immortalized as a martyr. I would much rather make him tranquil. What he did was outright terrorism, and he ensured that either all the mages will die, or pretty much everyone else will.
It seems like a constant theme in DA II is: If you give someone power, they will abuse it. So if you just let the mages govern themselves, you get another Tevinter. But the Kirkwall Circle wasn't right either. There are a bunch of possible solutions in between, but like I said before, I think the game more or less forced you to pick one extreme or the other to lead into the next game. It sucks, but if the next game lives up to my expectations, it will be worth it. I just pick whichever side fits my character that playthrough best, as the outcome is always the same.
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:52 pm
brainnsoup Starlight Dragon See this is where the debate is going on. It's a harsh choice and I don't exactly agree with it but there's a reason why Anders did it. He's not stupid just for the sake of being stupid. The mages will never have equality in their world, no matter some of the people had believed...not unless someone takes a stand. The mages were constantly going to be thrown in the Circle or being killed for being suspected for using blood magic. That's not fair at all... and that's one of the reasons I always defended the mages and somewhat understood Anders' choice.
To make a change, a big change...unfortunately causalities get thrown into the mix. There has never been a peaceful war (though I was attempting to do so in the game haha but we all know deep down inside...that remaining neutral would have done nothing and in the long run would have caused for harm in general...). This is why Anders' did this... It looks extra bad in the present day but...it's to help mages in the future. Maybe 100 years from that date but his plan was for them to stop being pushed around anymore. The war will cause everyone to battle until the end and then after it all ... people will gradually built up another life there, where there's no templars to rule over the mages, where anyone can live among everyone. It's the dream anyways...
Oh you do know you can kill Anders right? That's what you can do to him... bleh I really dislike that scene.
Though I must agree with the Orsino part. Oh wow....did that ever piss me off. It's like these stupid Kirkwall mages don't know how to say no to blood magic stare I was a bit upset they put that in the game. It made the mages look so dumb and not worth helping....but then again the templars weren't much better.....ugh how I hate Meredith.
There was a possible solution though. Thrask's vision was to get everyone to live in peace. It was a noble plan, but then he got that crazy witch Grace to help him and kidnapped my brother. I mean, Carver's an a**, but leave my people alone! What does that even accomplish anyway, except for being on the losing side of a beat-down from the one person with influence who was helping them? It's like all of the mages in this game got together and said, "How can we prove to everyone that we're no threat and just want our freedom?" "Hmm... Oh, I got it! How about we summon demons and kill everyone! That should let everyone know that we're the good mages!" Especially Anders. The mages I helped kept turning into abominations. Grace and her buddies kidnapped my loved ones after I let them escape. That deranged guy who killed my Hawke's mother is backed by Orsino. But I thought, no, Anders is different. And then he blew up the Chantry.
I don't get his reasoning. Why the Chantry? I get that the Chantry's view on mages isn't exactly friendly, but it would make more sense to attack Meredith. Or the templars. But instead he starts a holy war against mages, ensuring that every semi-religious person in Thedas who wasn't already anti-mage is going to be out for mage blood. And even if he had sound reasoning, it's evil regardless because he knows that the only way for the mages to come out on top is at the suffering of everyone else. Personally, I think that part was just lazy writing. Same with Meredith's evil lyrium sword. They had to ensure that a full-blown war starts against mages for the next game as DA II is obviously leading up to something huge.
And I know that you can kill him, but it's almost better than sending him away. If you send him away, he slinks off like a coward. If you kill him, he smiles and says something about now he can go on to be immortalized as a martyr. I would much rather make him tranquil. What he did was outright terrorism, and he ensured that either all the mages will die, or pretty much everyone else will.
It seems like a constant theme in DA II is: If you give someone power, they will abuse it. So if you just let the mages govern themselves, you get another Tevinter. But the Kirkwall Circle wasn't right either. There are a bunch of possible solutions in between, but like I said before, I think the game more or less forced you to pick one extreme or the other to lead into the next game. It sucks, but if the next game lives up to my expectations, it will be worth it. I just pick whichever side fits my character that playthrough best, as the outcome is always the same.
He took out the chantry because they were the middle "man". The chantry was neutral and as long as they were around....nothing would ever change. I just wish the Bioware gang didn't make almost all the mages become blood mages (espicially Orsino). It makes you almost not want to help out the mages and that they should be locked up because 90% of them turn to blood magic sweatdrop .
You can see that a few things must have been rushed. Like you said with Meredith and the damn lyrium sword. I believe they just used that so that they can have her go psycho and so you'd have to fight her no matter what. It just kind of sucks how the ending is more or less the same for everyone... Origins had such a good ending. Actually that's like one of the few games I liked the ending for... I tend to never like the endings.
Indeed...apparently no one knows how to handle power. They all go crazy and cause massive destruction. Too bad my Hawke couldn't have been the leader of Kirkwall haha she had a good head on her shoulders wink .
Down the line, I do think they are planning something really big for the next game. I'm going to keep my hopes up and hopefully Bioware will blow us away again...just like they did with Origins biggrin
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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:57 pm
Haha, I didn't take Carver with me to the deep roads. He was being such a whiny brat, and I had just gotten Fenris, so I took him instead. He dealed out more damage and has a pretty voice, it seemed like a no-brainer. XD So then Carver complained that I was a bad sister and was stealing his glory and blah blah blah, big surprise. And when I came back, he was a templar. Little brother, making a name for himself as the thing that would lock up 60% of his family for existing. Way to go.
Personally, I hated Awakening. Origins and DA II are brilliant IMO, and somehow Awakening is awful. But I still liked Anders. Even though he was a huge coward, and personality wise, he was a less funny version of Alistair, I still thought he was fun to have around. So yeah, it's really a shame what they did to him. Like I said, lazy writing. Nobody in their right mind would do what he did in the end, so let's turn Anders, who otherwise had a chance of having some depth, into a completely one-dimensional character so it will be believable when he ruins everything. He went from being one of the only light-hearted characters to sucking the fun out of everything. At least they made up for it with some other characters. The great thing about companions from Origins was that they had such depth. People talk about them like they're really their friends. It's awesome. And I think DA lost a lot of that with Awakening. But some of the characters from DA II actually develop over time again.
But I definitely think that DA II is leading up to something huge. I think it's a big war in Orlais fighting back the mages. So I was annoyed that the ending's pretty much the same no matter what you do, but it makes sense because if your decision actually mattered, importing that file would mean two entirely different games. So if they did it for that purpose, and if Dragon Age III (or whatever they call it) is as epic as it looks like it will be, I forgive them. XD
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:42 am
Ah ok...well Grey Warden Carver is way cooler 3nodding . Oh and as for your Carver ... it may be annoying but he was constantly in the shadow of your Hawke. I can understand why he's a bit grouchy ... Actually the other day I read all the codex entries for Carver and makes you understand him a bit more. He was the only non mage child... he was greatly misunderstood. Poor thing *pats Carver* . I found he was a more complex character then Bethany that's why I liked him better... he felt more realistic.
Haha Awakening was alright. I still did enjoy playing through it but man did it lack in so many departments. I did like the characters (such as Justice, Anders and Nathaniel) but they really didn't put as much effort into the characters like they should have. In the end, Awakening is fairly useless. I mean ok maybe the darkspawn numbers are way decreased because of the events that happened during the game (and you can sort of see that in DA2 since you rarely face any darkspawn...only in the deep roads).
As for Anders, they could have made him so much more amazing with being blended with Justice. That was actually a fantastic idea to make them join together and obviously to wanted to add some form of drama so they made things turn bad. I found the aspect of mixing Anders anger with Justice created "Vengeance" was marvelous ... too bad they didn't execute the idea quite as I had originally imagined.
Agreed, I do also believe it'll be situation in Orlais. They have so many hints leading to that idea. Oh for sure they did it on purpose, it would have so complicated things if they had two extremely different endings. So I guess we can only wait and see how Dragon Age III is going to be biggrin I'm already super impatient haha I want to play it already XD and it's probably hasn't even been fully started yet.
(Oh and thank you for replying to this topic!! Our debate here was the kind of thing I was looking for hehe. I wanted a nice discussion! :3 )
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:56 pm
Haha, same! About the discussion I mean. It's been so hard to have a discussion about the plot that actually goes anywhere.
But yeah, I understand why Carver is bitter. Especially when your Hawke is a mage and he's the only one in the family who isn't a mage other than Leandra. And I know that it's tough for him to live in his big sibling's shadow. I don't like him because of the way he deals with it. Instead of developing his own identity and personality, he follows you around like a puppy and then complains about it. Carver and my Hawke started off at the same social status. Carver is the younger brother, but so what? It's not my Hawke's fault that he's completely unremarkable except for his outstanding ability to sulk and shift blame, but it doesn't stop him from blaming her for all of his problems.
The darkspawn should have ended with the blight. They were brought back for Awakening. as for the Anders/Justice thing, I think it would have been better if they still retained their individuality in Anders. Like if they were two separate minds that could communicate, and Anders could fight him, at least at first. Then as time progressed they merged into one mind. It would have given us a chance to get to know Anders better and made him less of a one-dimensional character.
They've definitely started something. I just replayed Awakening, and they were already hinting at a mage uprising. With the plot of DA II being so underwhelming, the ending being so anti-climactic and inevitable, and everyone hinting towards something big going down in Orlais, DA II was obviously a placeholder for something much bigger. DA II definitely posed more questions than it answered. But still, they don't even have any new DLC yet and I'm already waiting for the next game haha.
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:41 pm
Seriously... The people I know who have played the game are so brain dead when it comes to discussing everything. Or there's some who disliked the game so much that all they did was bash it stare Each to their own I guess.
That is true, I did get a bit annoyed with him always blaming my Hawke for everything though at the end they share a very cute scene. Have you've played a file where Carver becomes a Grey Warden? You might like him a bit better through that playthrough haha. That was one aspect of the game I really like, how there's a variety of different situations that can happen to your sibling. It was pretty interesting.
Not exactly... they never disappear completely. They just return to the Deep Roads until another Archdemon is discovered and then a whole other blight will begin all over again. It's like a vicious circle...Awakening just put a little twist in the matter with the Architect, since he's "special".
For Anders/Justice, that actually would have been well played out the way you described it. I have this odd feeling that they are going to come out with a DLC that will show us Anders' story and when he merges with Justice (or something of that kind).
I actually should really replay Awakening since I always understand the game better on my 2nd playthroughs. Once I finish with my current file on DA2 I am going to replay Origins and Awakening back to back. Oh and yes, it's almost most definitely going to be in Orlais. Sadly, we've got a long time to wait until the third game comes out XD However, I'm sure there's going to be some DLCs for DA2 ...hopefully they don't suck like most DLCs sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:05 pm
I haven't. I might start another playthrough tonight to get the last two trophies though. I was going to wait for the next DLC to come out, but I'll have nothing to do tomorrow since my friends are out of town, and the next DLC will almost definitely post-game anyway.
If I bring Carver, that means I'll have to be a mage, which will be interesting because one of the trophies I need is the one for siding with the templars. Apparently I didn't side with them enough in my other file. I'll be the mage that hates mages! I wonder what my companions will have to say...
At least Carver will like me this time.
It sucks how a lot of the scenes that really give you insight on other characters are completely miss-able. For example, I don't want to give anything away, but I think Fenris' most powerful scene is if you betray him in Act 3. It offers a lot of insight on his character and his relationship with Hawke that you just don't see otherwise. And it sucks because the player that would choose that option probably doesn't care too much about Fenris' character development in the first place! XD
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:56 pm
Haha my brother did that on his playthrough, it was weird. Him being a mage siding with the templars....but his Carver was with the templars so at least it could make slight sense that his Hawke sided with the templars for his brothers sake... though unlikely XD
As for you, though you probably know already. You need Anders in your group during the expedition to have your sibling become a Grey Warden.
I understand what you mean, some of the most powerful scenes get pushed aside or maybe not even seen at all. I usually end up seeing them on youtube or something because I always have a hard time picking the a*****e options in the game. If I was too pursue Fenris or anyone else... It's so tough to betray them in some way. (yes... I know it's only a game but it makes me sad and uncomfortable to pick those options sweatdrop I hate seeing them all hurt and betrayed sad )
I remember that scene with Alistair in Origins where if you decide to make Loghain a Grey Warden...ya Alistair maybe overreacts a bit but it's understandable why he would want nothing to do with Loghain and would not want his "taint" to join the Wardens. If you befriended Alistair in anyway... he his deeply wounded by your decision and wow... it's powerful but it feels so damn awful to do so. Alistair is an amazing person who just wants whats best for everyone...and to crush him like that... bleh emo
Then there's also the scene if you are to woo both him and Zevran at the same time...but then you pick Zev... ackkk it's so well done on how heartbroken poor Ali is
Back on Fenris, I'm actually romancing him in my current playthrough. Things are going super cutely at the moment but I'm still only at the beginning. I won't be able to betray him.... I just can't...so I'll have to check out this scene on youtube after I'm fully done with the romance.
(Wow I just about wrote a novel here sweatdrop I get way too much into my Dragon Age haha)
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