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 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:50 pm
Omnomnom Omnomnom, delicious animated objects. D<
Stamina Cost: 5-6 Stamina
Cooldown: 2 minutes
RR1 -> 80-120 Damage (100 Damage) + 50% Boost (1 Min)
RR2 -> 100-160 Damage (130 Damage) + 100% Boost (1 Min 10 Seconds)
RR3 -> 140-200 Damage (170 Damage) + 150% Boost (1 Min 20 Seconds)
RR4 -> 180-260 Damage (220 Damage) + 200% Boost (1 Min 30 Seconds) With this ring, each animated is assigned a stat, and a boost level. (Sea Spouts for example, might have Dodge 120.) So if you use this ring against a Sea Spout at RR1, you get a +60 Dodge bonus for 1 minute. At RR4, you get a +240 Dodge Bonus for 1 and a half minutes. Powerful, unique AND it highly benefits skilled/tactical use.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:19 pm
You know, I was thinking about a ring that allowed you to eat enemies just earlier today. Mine wasn't nearly as unique as yours (mediocre damage; if it kills the enemy, it heals you a bit), but it's still the same basic premise. sweatdrop
I always like attacks that grant buffs. Personally, I like the 'eating' concept a little better when it hinges on actually killing the enemy in question, but I guess that's just me. If you were to try it that way, you'd probably want to increase the damage some (to make it easier to activate), but with a 2-minute Cooldown, I don't think that's a problem - particularly since you'd be holding it back until you could, with some certainty, activate the buff alongside it.
Another thought that comes to mind is a FFIX-style 'Eat' - it does no damage on its own, but it checks if the target's Health is low enough to be eaten. If it is, the enemy is destroyed and the user gains their bonus (in FFIX it was Blue Magic - here, it would probably be your buff). That version makes it much less useful as an attack, so the strength of the actual buff can be maintained at a pretty respectable level.
However, if this were going to happen, I'd sure want them to make better use of assigning each enemy a certain stat than just one ring. Perhaps making it function based on elements (either by assigning each element a relevant stat, or by changing the user's elemental properties - the magnitude could simply be based on the target's CL), if that ever comes to fruition? That, or ensure that there are a fair number of other rings that care about these newly assigned stats...
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:32 pm
Yes, I was debating the whole killing thing myself.
But on-death triggers aren't so useful in team games/MMOs I find. Take for example Borderlands, where on death you get a chance at a second wind by killing an enemy. My brother frequently stole the kills I was about to make out from under me, so I could never get the on-death thing to trigger.
That is another option, but at that point you're starting to get towards a single target buff with a strange and potentially challenging trigger scenario. I know I never bothered using eat myself because it was too hard to get the enemies down to that level without flat out killing them.
I'd suggest using other rings that gain from this mechanic. Perhaps a mirror ring that passively boosts your stats based on what you're fighting.
... Should I make a new thread for that, or just tack it in this one? I like this idea.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:12 pm
Valheita Yes, I was debating the whole killing thing myself. But on-death triggers aren't so useful in team games/MMOs I find. Take for example Borderlands, where on death you get a chance at a second wind by killing an enemy. My brother frequently stole the kills I was about to make out from under me, so I could never get the on-death thing to trigger. That is another option, but at that point you're starting to get towards a single target buff with a strange and potentially challenging trigger scenario. I know I never bothered using eat myself because it was too hard to get the enemies down to that level without flat out killing them. I'd suggest using other rings that gain from this mechanic. Perhaps a mirror ring that passively boosts your stats based on what you're fighting. ... Should I make a new thread for that, or just tack it in this one? I like this idea.
I suppose it all depends on how difficult it is to time it properly - D&D's Cleave ability is a similar death-triggered ability, and it's a staple. Enemies in zOMG! tend to die a lot quicker than D&D ones, though - particularly in Crew situations (the only one where you'd have a foreseeable problem).
I know using Eat was a pain, but again I think it's all relative - catching wild Pokemon often requires them to be just as low, and I don't know anyone who simply foregoes that. Part of the problem with Eat was that it simply was rarely ever worth the trouble (the other part was that it required you to keep Quina around, which nobody wanted to do). Making the buff good enough to be worth the trouble is all it would take to avoid that.
I'm not sure how many rings it would take for this to be worthwhile, without making it seem like a major theme. 3? 4? Probably not more than that. Omnomnom, Mirror; perhaps an area debuff based on the stat (so, in a group of various enemies, you'd be able to choose which debuff to apply based on which one you target); any other thoughts for it?
And you're free to make another thread if you'd rather keep this one focused, or you can just let this one expand to include the whole premise. I don't mind the Forums here flooding with lots of little threads if you'd prefer it, as part of the premise of the Guild was hoping that the good ideas wouldn't get buried amongst the discussion... sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:24 pm
Red Kutai
I suppose it all depends on how difficult it is to time it properly - D&D's Cleave ability is a similar death-triggered ability, and it's a staple. Enemies in zOMG! tend to die a lot quicker than D&D ones, though - particularly in Crew situations (the only one where you'd have a foreseeable problem).
I know using Eat was a pain, but again I think it's all relative - catching wild Pokemon often requires them to be just as low, and I don't know anyone who simply foregoes that. Part of the problem with Eat was that it simply was rarely ever worth the trouble (the other part was that it required you to keep Quina around, which nobody wanted to do). Making the buff good enough to be worth the trouble is all it would take to avoid that.
I'm not sure how many rings it would take for this to be worthwhile, without making it seem like a major theme. 3? 4? Probably not more than that. Omnomnom, Mirror; perhaps an area debuff based on the stat (so, in a group of various enemies, you'd be able to choose which debuff to apply based on which one you target); any other thoughts for it?
And you're free to make another thread if you'd rather keep this one focused, or you can just let this one expand to include the whole premise. I don't mind the Forums here flooding with lots of little threads if you'd prefer it, as part of the premise of the Guild was hoping that the good ideas wouldn't get buried amongst the discussion... sweatdrop
Cleave is... relative. I never bothered with it unless I was going Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin. Otherwise, there are frequently better feats to pick. Cleave is also a perk, not something you specifically time for, and waste your turn on should it fail. I dunno about you, but I use False Swipe + specialist balls for my Pokemon catching needs. Moreover, it's not a race against time as other players try to kill my pokemon. D: What's the requirement to be "worthwhile"? It's another line in the monsters XML files. Not all new classes that'll never be used for anything else. I'll do another thread, when I wake up a bit more. I'm so very sleepy.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:07 pm
Valheita Red Kutai
I suppose it all depends on how difficult it is to time it properly - D&D's Cleave ability is a similar death-triggered ability, and it's a staple. Enemies in zOMG! tend to die a lot quicker than D&D ones, though - particularly in Crew situations (the only one where you'd have a foreseeable problem).
I know using Eat was a pain, but again I think it's all relative - catching wild Pokemon often requires them to be just as low, and I don't know anyone who simply foregoes that. Part of the problem with Eat was that it simply was rarely ever worth the trouble (the other part was that it required you to keep Quina around, which nobody wanted to do). Making the buff good enough to be worth the trouble is all it would take to avoid that.
I'm not sure how many rings it would take for this to be worthwhile, without making it seem like a major theme. 3? 4? Probably not more than that. Omnomnom, Mirror; perhaps an area debuff based on the stat (so, in a group of various enemies, you'd be able to choose which debuff to apply based on which one you target); any other thoughts for it?
And you're free to make another thread if you'd rather keep this one focused, or you can just let this one expand to include the whole premise. I don't mind the Forums here flooding with lots of little threads if you'd prefer it, as part of the premise of the Guild was hoping that the good ideas wouldn't get buried amongst the discussion... sweatdrop
Cleave is... relative. I never bothered with it unless I was going Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin. Otherwise, there are frequently better feats to pick. Cleave is also a perk, not something you specifically time for, and waste your turn on should it fail. I dunno about you, but I use False Swipe + specialist balls for my Pokemon catching needs. Moreover, it's not a race against time as other players try to kill my pokemon. D: What's the requirement to be "worthwhile"? It's another line in the monsters XML files. Not all new classes that'll never be used for anything else. I'll do another thread, when I wake up a bit more. I'm so very sleepy.
You're talking to someone who generally sticks to core classes, here. If you're not running Barbarian, Paladin, or Fighter, were you considering throwing Cleave on your... Wizard? xp I think I understand what you're getting at, anyway, but there are always two options - make the perk large enough that you actively seek to activate it, or small enough that you don't mind when it doesn't activate. Cleave is clearly the latter; the extra attack is nice, but a Cleaveless attack doesn't feel like a waste. Actually, the ring Slash fits into the same group; it's best to use it against multiple enemies, but it works well enough that you don't really feel bad using it one-on-one. I'm not sure, though, about the relative commonality of catching multiple enemies in Slash, and of killing an enemy with a given attack. I bet we could work it out.
Back in my day, we didn't know what you're talking about. We made sure to keep Pokemon around who were weak to whatever we were trying to catch, just to make sure we wouldn't accidentally score a OHKO. And then we threw Ultra Balls till we were blue in the face. And that was all just to catch a Seel. gonk I do see what you're saying about the race against time, though - perhaps death triggers aren't quite so ideal for high-cooldown rings like the one you've got here. Allowing more chances to activate it makes you feel considerably less cheated, when you fail.
And the matter of "worthwhile" just has to do with the complexity it adds to the game. I suppose, given that it only matters if you actually equip the ring, the game gets off easy on that one - but it'd be a lot to ask of a new player to memorise the various effects a ring like this could produce, particularly as he's still working his way through the game. It may work better if they choose to segregate new rings in new areas, rather than throwing them in alongside the current ones. My only point was that if we're going to be adding a layer of complexity to the game, we should want to get enough interesting effects out of it to make it worth remembering.
Now, get some sleep. Silly idea threads will be here tomorrow... 3nodding
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:02 am
I stick to core classes fairly well >.>;;
Complexity... It only adds if you're interested in exploiting it. It's like in Pokemon. You can use Sandstorm purely to whittle down the enemies HP, or you can use it to boost your own Sp. Def stat, but how many people realise it has the second effect?
That's the beauty of the ring, the only time it's complex is if you want to really exploit it.
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:41 am
Ah, this would give a proper answer that thread. I'm partial toward the "Kill low Hp Enemy" effect, but maybe without the damage in-take and maybe 100% efficiency on their appropriate level. One thing annoying would be to try and eat one enemy and see yourself both fail and have to wait, plus the bothersome detail of other people with the ring having to get a new animated to eat instead. I know exactly what you mean by on-death triggers getting stolen away. It takes a bit of time to ask others to let something live on Sealab when you're with randoms, and those stuff have high Hp. The chance of charging Omnonom to full rage before the enemy just dying on you could escape you more often than not. But at least this ring has something beautiful to it which is, if the monster you were going to eat was killed, at least you didn't waste your 2 minute cool-down on air. You can try again on the very next foe. Also, jut to make that a bit less of an issue, higher rage ranks could require a larger range of Hp to work than the lower RR's. The way I see it, the buff's power could very well compensate how hard it is to get them. I realize this is a draft, still, the suggestion brings a possible boost of 120 Dodge (which I'm assuming is for Cl 10). If I remember correctly 120 wasn't a game breaking amount of stat, but it did make a small noticeable difference - coupled with Ghost and Knife Sharpen, it could make you invincible! It's a whooping 360 difference from baseline! 420 with Chef thrown in as well. Considering that we have 500 base Dodge at Cl 10, this is a true Boss Killer! Still, not as powerful as you could think of abusing it against bosses. The buff is short lived and depends mostly on the environment for the appropriate effect. One could think of wearing this to rape EB with an additional stat and find out grunny subs increase to your Weight stat, making it apparently completely useless on that boss fight. And then, a smarter fellow experimenting with it could also find a secret which is EB's missile attacks having an overall better boost than most in the game. The difficulty of pulling off the ring's effect would play a part here. The grunnies are many times ignored, so you can easily take one out on your own and eat it. In the other hand it's very hard using something like Omnomnom against missiles, but if the buff was just that awesome, we could very well see the occasional player attempting it, if he's carrying it and there's nothing better around to use it on. That is why I agree with the very last line in this thread. If worked right the only time it is complex is when you really want to exploit it.
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:33 am
Quintafeira12 at least you didn't waste your 2 minute cool-down on air.
I'm curious what others think about the ring having a variable cooldown - that is, a smaller (5-second, maybe?) base Cooldown, adding on the additional 115 seconds if you actually do eat something (i.e. when the buff part activates). A little more complicated that way, but it's understandable enough - if you don't actually eat something, there's no reason to wait before taking another bite. I think the damage on it is low enough that it's not really efficient as a DPS supplement, but it'd be worth having the option over not, eh?
Additionally, this would give the option of having some enemies simply not grant a buff, without making them too terribly annoying. While on the subject, I'd also like to see some 'poisonous' enemy somewhere (in my head, they're mushroom-shaped - but they wouldn't be too commonplace) that actually carries a debuff, rather than a buff. Eat those, and you're doing yourself more harm than good... sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:48 am
Hmmm... Even when you don't use Rage there's a chance you'll waste if the monster is killed in the gap between activation and when the effects actually happens.
Solution: make it quick like Mantis or Solar, not slow like Shark or Hornet's.
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:35 am
Or make it so any trigger at all gives you benefit, even if the effect never "connects" with the target.
Yes whatever it does, it has to be fast. Alternatively, it has to do with variable digestion cooldown like Kutai just said.
I can picture this ring getting buggy on the first week already. Stuff like it stopping its cool down forever until you log out, with the stuff we can come up for it.
Also, I think this idea totally deserves a spot in the z!F as well.
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:51 am
gataka Hmmm... Even when you don't use Rage there's a chance you'll waste if the monster is killed in the gap between activation and when the effects actually happens. Solution: make it quick like Mantis or Solar, not slow like Shark or Hornet's.
The only rings that should be slow like Shark Attack and Hornet's Nest are rings like Shark Attack and Hornet's Nest - or, rather, fixed Shark Attack and Hornet's Nest. sweatdrop
Both Shark Attack and Hornet's Nest want to be slow, high-damage rings - if you're using them on an enemy who's close to dying, you're probably wasting a good portion of the effect already (particularly for damage-over-time, like Hornet's Nest). The bigger the effect something has, the slower it can be, as the positions where you most want to use a big ring and the positions where you most want to use a fast ring don't overlap much - and where they do, I think forcing the choice is reasonable enough.
Also, does Shark Attack calculate effects on activation, or on resolution? What shows up when you use Shark Attack and the enemy dies before it goes resolves? If it actually shows damage, that implies that it may perform the calculations when you activate the ring, then simply apply them whenever the animation finishes - meaning it wouldn't matter if the enemy was still around by that point, or not. If it shows "Invalid Target", on the other hand, that implies that it calculates on resolution, which would actually require one of the workarounds we've posed here...
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:23 pm
Quintafeira12 Ah, this would give a proper answer that thread. That's where the idea came from xd Quote: I'm partial toward the "Kill low Hp Enemy" effect, but maybe without the damage in-take and maybe 100% efficiency on their appropriate level. One thing annoying would be to try and eat one enemy and see yourself both fail and have to wait, plus the bothersome detail of other people with the ring having to get a new animated to eat instead. Intially when discussing the ring with my girlfriend, I used a consume crippled enemy approach, but it was harder to balance because there's a lot of ifs there. For example, what is low HP? Is it less than 10%? At which point, we're talking about a ring that could potentially deal upwards of a thousand damage to the Sealab boss. Quote: The way I see it, the buff's power could very well compensate how hard it is to get them. I realize this is a draft, still, the suggestion brings a possible boost of 120 Dodge (which I'm assuming is for Cl 10). If I remember correctly 120 wasn't a game breaking amount of stat, but it did make a small noticeable difference - coupled with Ghost and Knife Sharpen, it could make you invincible! It's a whooping 360 difference from baseline! 420 with Chef thrown in as well. Considering that we have 500 base Dodge at Cl 10, this is a true Boss Killer! 120 is at RR2, RR4 offers twice that. This was based on the Ghost value. (Incidentally, the damage values are the same as Shark Attack, I believe you'll find). Quote: Still, not as powerful as you could think of abusing it against bosses. The buff is short lived and depends mostly on the environment for the appropriate effect. It's long enough lived to get some impact if you're not dependant on the death trigger though. Old 30 second Turtle was enough for me to slaughter a screen alone.
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:51 pm
Valheita At which point, we're talking about a ring that could potentially deal upwards of a thousand damage to the Sealab boss. I assumed that it wasn't going to affect bosses in any way, or just damage them like a badly chosen attack ring if it had attack power. Seriously, any smaller % of health on a boss like EB is a whole deal more serious than the same % on a fluff. They are meant to be treated differently from the get go. Besides, other than insta-kill, why would you eat a boss other than Mama Saw? You ended the Boss lair at that point, no need to make Boss specific buffs. Quote: 120 is at RR2, RR4 offers twice that. This was based on the Ghost value. (Incidentally, the damage values are the same as Shark Attack, I believe you'll find). Quote: It's long enough lived to get some impact if you're not dependant on the death trigger though. Old 30 second Turtle was enough for me to slaughter a screen alone. I realized that... Doesn't that just make it more broken? Come on opinions, are in you favor or against that? It'd be awesome to have a situational ring with a great benefit such as this, but I don't want it to go this far. xp That's why I mentioned Grunny Subs giving weight bonus. We must create situations where the ring is just completely ineffective as well. The boss who would suffer the most from this ring would be Stone Coatl. He has such a variety of helpers, at least one would become a preferred dish. And Hive/Coliseum too.
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Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:01 pm
Quintafeira12 I assumed that it wasn't going to affect bosses in any way, or just damage them like a badly chosen attack ring if it had attack power. Seriously, any smaller % of health on a boss like EB is a whole deal more serious than the same % on a fluff. They are meant to be treated differently from the get go. Besides, other than insta-kill, why would you eat a boss other than Mama Saw? You ended the Boss lair at that point, no need to make Boss specific buffs. Eh, I don't like the idea of useless useful rings myself. That CC does it is irritating enough without it spreading to attacks. Lorelei? EB Tail? Even EB Body has reason to get eaten. Quote: I realized that... Doesn't that just make it more broken? Come on opinions, are in you favor or against that? It'd be awesome to have a situational ring with a great benefit such as this, but I don't want it to go this far. xp That's why I mentioned Grunny Subs giving weight bonus. We must create situations where the ring is just completely ineffective as well. The boss who would suffer the most from this ring would be Stone Coatl. He has such a variety of helpers, at least one would become a preferred dish. And Hive/Coliseum too. It's not particularly broken. Ghost is a +120 bonus to the whole crew for 15 minutes. This one, at RR4, is double that, for one player only, for 1 minute and a half. Single target buffs are always stronger than group or AoE buffs. And even on the attack side, it's just a slow shark attack, which is already pretty much the worst attack we have.
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