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Reply Twilight Council: Game Mechanics, and Strategy Discussions
My Theory As To Why The Game Is "Broken". Goto Page: 1 2 [>] [»|]

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Immortal Nobody
Crew

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:52 pm


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*Note I use broken as a very loose term.

Reactors and Warpgates. Not their existence within the game, but their availability from the start of the match. No one can deny that Zerg's units are weak when compared to the other races but ask anyone and most will tell you that this is made up for by Zerg's units being quickly and easily massed, hence the nickname the Swarm. Zerg requires this trait in order to stand a chance against the Terran and Protoss opponents. The problem, as I see it, is the fact that Terran Reactors and Protoss Warpgates are able to keep up with Zerg production and, in some cases, even surpass it. Mid to late game this isn't much of an issue because the Zerg's economy is most likely fully established and at that point Terran and Protoss would need that little extra umph to stand toe to toe with Zerg's swarming capability. The issue, as I see it, lies in that the Reactors and the Warpgates are available for use at the very beginning of the game. This availability completely nullifies the Zerg's strength in their ability to swarm because not only are the Zerg units weaker than all the other units they also do not have the strength of numbers that they need in order to survive the early game from the very start of the game. If you compare the Zerg units to their counterparts you will find that they are slightly cheaper and definitely weaker. This weakness is made up for by the ability to swarm. With the introduction of Reactors and Warpgates into the beginning of the game that single greatest strength of the Zerg race is taken away from the word go.

Now, this is my honest opinion. This is not me QQ'ing or raging after a series of losses. I think the game is very close to balance. There are a bunch of small issues that add up and need to be addressed but I do not think there are any big, obvious balance problems that require massive nerfs to Terran and Protoss, just a small amount of tweaking to all races.

And bring the ******** Reapers back. D<
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:43 pm


Warp gates do ruin PvP.. and I'm not sure how to solve that (I have one crazy idea lolo~) but they're not available until 7 minutes into a game so it's not quite the VERY beginning... also I think marines in general are moreso the problem than reactors... but yeah those are basically the biggest issues in the game imo: marines being too strong and pvp being a horrible MU (altho I need to get better now that i think about this -- a lot of people said zvz sucked when it OWNED/OWNS so maybe it's just a bunch of haters -- jesus i'm high and lost where i'm at in this sentence.

that doesn't happen often O_O anyway
good music time

k.

back this... yeah marines are ******** TONIGHT BAYBAYY~~

ecstasy frost
Crew

Victory


Onos

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:44 pm


I never understood why they did this. The zerg has to be one step ahead in order to be on even footing. I don't see where that at all comes to be close to balanced.

Terran had the great defense and flexbility. Protoss had most of the casters and expensive strong units with two defenses. Zerg had the swarm. Once they gave the ability for the other two races to swarm, I just don't understand.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:51 pm


Onos
I never understood why they did this. The zerg has to be one step ahead in order to be on even footing. I don't see where that at all comes to be close to balanced.

Terran had the great defense and flexbility. Protoss had most of the casters and expensive strong units with two defenses. Zerg had the swarm. Once they gave the ability for the other two races to swarm, I just don't understand.

yeah i remember feeling like, "wow the other races [now i feel terran moreso] can swarm just as much as Zerg.

ecstasy frost
Crew

Victory


Immortal Nobody
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:55 am


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Seven minutes is still pretty fast. I propose that Reactors and Warpgates require Tier 2.5 (hell, maybe even Tier 3) before they can be built. I believe this would in effect fix the game almost completely. We would see fewer biofags from Terran as they would actually be forced to play the game (I'm convinced they're not playing the game because the only units I ever see from a Terran player are the Marine, Marauder and the Medivac. I about s**t myself when I saw a Raven earlier today) and expand on their unit compositions. Same goes for Protoss. Their Gateway units are the most powerful in the game (compared to their counterparts) and the ability to warp them in nearly instantly is more than a bit overpowered, especially when you add Chronoboost and multiple Warpgates into the mix. Denying them Warpgate technology in the early game would force them to use a very rarely seen ability to augment their numbers: Hallucination. You would also see better players coming into the fore as the lack of being able to instantly replenish their army would weed out the weaker players. Unit micro would improve and there'd be more hit and run tactics incorporated by both races instead of this bullshit turtle and steamroll play.

You see, I'm not trying to cripple my opponents. I'm trying to make the game more dynamic, less predictable and less frustrating.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:00 am


Immortal Nobody
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Seven minutes is still pretty fast. I propose that Reactors and Warpgates require Tier 2.5 (hell, maybe even Tier 3) before they can be built. I believe this would in effect fix the game almost completely. We would see fewer biofags from Terran as they would actually be forced to play the game (I'm convinced they're not playing the game because the only units I ever see from a Terran player are the Marine, Marauder and the Medivac. I about s**t myself when I saw a Raven earlier today) and expand on their unit compositions. Same goes for Protoss. Their Gateway units are the most powerful in the game (compared to their counterparts) and the ability to warp them in nearly instantly is more than a bit overpowered, especially when you add Chronoboost and multiple Warpgates into the mix. Denying them Warpgate technology in the early game would force them to use a very rarely seen ability to augment their numbers: Hallucination. You would also see better players coming into the fore as the lack of being able to instantly replenish their army would weed out the weaker players. Unit micro would improve and there'd be more hit and run tactics incorporated by both races instead of this bullshit turtle and steamroll play.

You see, I'm not trying to cripple my opponents. I'm trying to make the game more dynamic, less predictable and less frustrating.
One of the things I hate the most is the turtle steamroll way the game is played, and I wish mmm wasn't so good.

Onos


Immortal Nobody
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:41 pm


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And my idea to delay Reactors would crush the ability to mass MMM early. 3nodding
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:34 pm


Quote:
And bring the ******** Reapers back. D<


Thisthisthisthisthis.
They've nerfed them so much that I don't even know why they even bothered making them in the first place.

MMM isn't so bad if their positioning is s**t and you can get your banelings in there. It's the ******** tanks that frustrate me.

Evataph


Onos

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:40 pm


Evataph
Quote:
And bring the ******** Reapers back. D<


Thisthisthisthisthis.
They've nerfed them so much that I don't even know why they even bothered making them in the first place.

MMM isn't so bad if their positioning is s**t and you can get your banelings in there. It's the ******** tanks that frustrate me.
It feels like murder against toss until I can pop out a collosus or get storm on ht. Getting out immortals can destroy the marauders, but you have to micro really good with them, because marines eat their shields, and then rauders will destroy them once their shield is gone. The only real thing I can think of, is wait for them to stim, then forcefield them to stay away from you and run until the stim runs out. Then forcefield them again so they can't run away from you. This is all assuming you have the gas for all the sentries and then all the energy stored up >_<
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:42 pm


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Eva: Well that's a lot of ifs. Banelings are a suicide unit that cost gas. I think it's wrong that they can be easily countered by the unit they're supposed to counter. And if memory serves, I read some stats earlier that says Marines with Stim are faster than Banelings with speed on creep. Wtf.

Immortal Nobody
Crew


C4D
Captain

Newbie Noob

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:58 pm


I don't really have a problem with the terran reactors, because aside from mass marines, they don't really work towards a core army.

Only thing mass marine needs to be dealt with is slightly faster speed banelings.

The warpgate however is too strong, not because of it's ability to mass up units in a whim, but more so the problem is in it's timing, the warpgate timing push happens at JUST the right time to one sided face roll every opponent, I think if it got delayed a little bit and cost a little bit more, things would work out a lot better.

It's not so much the tech that is the problem, but the timing push as a result of the tech.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:30 pm


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If that were true the Marine wouldn't be able to hold off higher tier units as effectively as it does. And I think you only applied my point to Protoss. The Reactor allows Terran to mass large amounts of Marines in a short period of time very early in the game. Just like Warpgate allows Protoss to do with their units.

Immortal Nobody
Crew


Primity Aurora
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:05 pm


the way I see it, everything is fine as it is. besides, of course, the common acknowledgement that Zerg are considered to be very underpowered at the moment. but this talk of Marines and Reactor/Warpgate do not emphasize the Zerg weakness, but simply their respective race's strengths. attempts at balance are very difficult, because Blizzard wants to make it so that all players of all skill levels can "compete" within their own skill level. simply changing the mechanics of certain abilities or stats of certain units can greatly affect all the matchups. anyway, back to balancing.

metagame-wise, early infantry pushes are not the result of Reactors. contrarily, many of the early-game infantry play we see are the result of any variation of 2Rax, such as 2Rax Rush, Marine/SCV All-in, or 2Techlab timing push. if anything, Reactors are used more efficiently in mid-game as Factory/Starport add-ons to double Hellion/Medivac production. they're a late-game necessity in order to try and stay even with the production level of Protoss or Zerg. competitively, Reactors are too slow for infantry pushes because they take too long to build: twice as long as a Tech Lab.

this goes back to my point of balancing mechanics for "all skill levels." in high-Gold to low-Diamond, 3Rax play is still popular and builds up a sizable infantry ball with Reactors to attack early mid-game. it's not the best of timing windows, but obviously against similar skilled players it works.

as for Warpgates, those things are just straight overpowered. but balance is delicate, and it's hard to satisfy everyone.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:35 pm


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Ya see? When you put it like that it sounds reasonable. In that case we're back to the oldest Zerg request: Nerf Marines. xd
I really don't think buffing their counters is the answer. No amount of buffs will ever change the fact that Marines are just too good for they're cost. My proposed change is to either increase the cost to 100min or decrease their overall DPS. I don't remember what the numbers were but someone in the SC2 forums crunched the numbers and found that, with the advent of SC2, Marines received both a health and DPS boost and Zealots experienced a health increase. Meanwhile, Zerglings suffered a health and DPS decrease. Prices remained the same. Now that hardly seems fair.
I really don't want to believe it's true, but when you look at the game as a whole it really does seem like the developers wanted Zerg to be underpowered. :/

Immortal Nobody
Crew


Onos

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:53 am


I remember reading on that number crunching. I remember specifically that marines received a large attack speed increase from sc1->2, which in turn lets them have a much higher dps. The zergling AI and pathing doesn't help either.
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Twilight Council: Game Mechanics, and Strategy Discussions

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