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 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:49 pm
I am of the opinion that the Terran Thor is too easily attained and too easily massed. This is a problem in that the Thor is a Tier 3 unit. It could be argued that the Thor is a weak unit on its own but when massed and/or supported by any other unit composition it becomes a serious threat to any opposing army. I believe the problem lies in the short tech path. If you look at all the other T3 units in the game, including the Battlecruiser, you find you have to go a little out of your way to attain them. But the Thor is practically handed to you.
If you look at it, the Thor requires a Factory with an attached Tech Lab (which you'll have anyway) and an Armory (which you'll be getting anyway). So the Armory performs two functions: Providing upgrades for your mechanized ground and air forces and unlocking the Thor for production.
Now, I understand that none of the races are supposed to be mirrored, but if you look at all other structures of the same nature as the Armory (including the Engineering Bay) you find that none of them perform a tertiary function beyond upgrades for your army and unlocking various supporting structures (which in some cases unlock further tech paths, namely the T3 path).
Look at the other T3 units in the game. They all require long, convoluted tech paths to be navigated. The Thor is the only exception. Why is this? Why is it just handed to you? While you're considering that keep this in mind: The Thor has the fastest build time of all the Tier 3 units. So it has the fastest build time as well as the fastest and most simple tech path.
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:31 pm
As a Terran player myself, I have to argue with your opinion.
Personally, The Thor is an amazing unit....when it's not fighting. It's a SIEG weapon, meaning for breaking buildings. The Thor's 400 HP can be slaughtered by any mass Tier 1 or tier two unit if mirco'd well. Any other tier 3 can wipe the floor with it. It's short so that the Terran can have a slight advantage when progressing to tier 3. I know that Thor's are practically used to break walls. As you stated, alone, it's nothing, but when Supported with other units, it's a threat. That can be said about any Tier 3 unit.
I'll stay here and say that, although simple, simplicity has a price; it's usefulness. Essentially it's a Walking sieg tank in sieg mode. Without the splash damage. However, my fellow terran players assume it to be better than that. I'll say, personally, It's better to effectively use a unit for what it's designed for; like how Void Rays are made for destroying massive targets, and how Roaches are made for hit and run tactics.
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:28 pm
You haven't actually argued against my point at all. For instance, a mass of T1 units will take down any T3 unit with proper micro. And as you said about it being a siege weapon, all the T3 units are heavily specialized like that. So why does Terran, the race that cannot be eco harassed because of MULEs, need any sort of advantage from the length of the tech tree when they already have some of the most cost effective units in the game?
And for the record, Roaches are a bit slow for hit and run tactics. Zerglings with Metabolic Boost works better for that.
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:44 pm
compared to other T3 units, yes, the Thor is an easier tech tree. that's because the ability to produce a Factory straight from a Barracks essentially skips a section of development. to put this in another race's terms, this would be similar to producing a Spire straight after a Spawning Pool, skipping the Lair. or warping a Stargate directly after a Gateway, skipping the Cybercore.
and it's simply constructed this way because of Terran's playstyle. reverse the situation: if we were to insert an additional prerequisite building for Factory that is only unlocked with the completion of the Barracks, it would mess a lot of things up for Terran. so yes, Thors are the easiest T3 unit to produce in terms of tech development.
but ultimately, is it a problem? imo no. Thors are fine as they are. they're a good support unit, which is a fine position for the unit to be in since it can be produced so easily.
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Primity Aurora Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:14 pm
I don't disagree with you. At all. What I'm trying to point out is that the other race's equivalent to the Armory is just an Armory and then they'd have to build something else to get that T3 unit. A perfect example would be the need for a Fusion Core to get the Battlecruiser. Or the Fleet Beacon to get the Carrier.
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:12 am
So what I'm getting is that you think a new building should be made specifically for the purpose of unlocking the Thor, and maybe possibly have a couple upgrades or something.
I guess I can't argue either way, but if that's true I do think Thors would need a slight buff. I have come to have less trouble with them lately, but then again, many people I've played are shying away from using the Thor.
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:31 am
Mmm, not really. I'm not saying anything needs to be changed, buffed, or nerfed. I'm just calling attention to this anomaly.
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Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:34 pm
I don't think Thors should be able to attack and be repaired at the same time and that's all I'm gunna say about that.
Same goes with the PF.
Either that, or it should be able to be targeted by ONE repairing scvs...not like...5.
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Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 pm
Its important to have access to the Thor for anti-muta, so it needs to be around the same timing as mutalisks.
If you are worried about having access to a unit that can be massed up to be a really strong force, void rays are pretty scary. And they even counter Thors.
But what matters is, can a player actually mass up this force without dying, or allowing his opponent to do absolutely anything with the map? Probably not.
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Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:29 pm
I remember the thor being considered 2.5, since starport was considered t3?
The problem is though, there is no cost effective way to counter the thor as zerg. Too many zerglings die, and not all can surround, roaches get blasted away, hyrda are squishy but possible, banelings killing one looks hilarious, but not effective at all, mutas... Eh, if you stop them from clumping (magic box. Term is retarded but everyone knows it) it's pretty effective, infestors... lol. Neural parasite is the best they can do with it, which is good, but too bad infestors are squishy as hell.
The only good counter to them are broodlords, which are t3 or 3.5. Either way, thors are op against zerg, but if they balance for z v t, toss can easily be op against t. It's a hard balance, because stalkers do extra dmg to it, void rays can kill it, and immortals are sorta a direct counter to thors and siege tanks. It used to be really easy to kill thors earlier. You used to be able to feedback them and drop their hp a lot if they were sitting around. Most people didn't use their ability.
In regards to tech structure requirements though... Zerg is based around that, and toss have quite a few of those. I hate how useless the twilight council and dark shrine are. Mostly twilight council. All it does is open up the path again, and give you two upgrades. No immediate help or units, just a speed bump to ht/dt. As if it didn't take long enough to get ht out with upgrades.
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:17 pm
Onos I remember the thor being considered 2.5, since starport was considered t3? The problem is though, there is no cost effective way to counter the thor as zerg. Too many zerglings die, and not all can surround, roaches get blasted away, hyrda are squishy but possible, banelings killing one looks hilarious, but not effective at all, mutas... Eh, if you stop them from clumping (magic box. Term is retarded but everyone knows it) it's pretty effective, infestors... lol. Neural parasite is the best they can do with it, which is good, but too bad infestors are squishy as hell. The only good counter to them are broodlords, which are t3 or 3.5. Either way, thors are op against zerg, but if they balance for z v t, toss can easily be op against t. It's a hard balance, because stalkers do extra dmg to it, void rays can kill it, and immortals are sorta a direct counter to thors and siege tanks. It used to be really easy to kill thors earlier. You used to be able to feedback them and drop their hp a lot if they were sitting around. Most people didn't use their ability. In regards to tech structure requirements though... Zerg is based around that, and toss have quite a few of those. I hate how useless the twilight council and dark shrine are. Mostly twilight council. All it does is open up the path again, and give you two upgrades. No immediate help or units, just a speed bump to ht/dt. As if it didn't take long enough to get ht out with upgrades. Ya, Zerg definitely lacks in the cost efficiency. But due to their explosive economy they seem to do alright. I actually like magic box vs Thors, does alright (and I like the term magic box, it makes more sense in BW though). I agree with you on tech structures, except for the twilight council. Legs is a pretty huge upgrade that turns all zeals into a scary threat, and without it DTs would be too threatening too early. I do wish they only had one structure for DT/HT though, so that one could open DTs and have the HT followup already paid for.
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:43 pm
oHoN Onos I remember the thor being considered 2.5, since starport was considered t3? The problem is though, there is no cost effective way to counter the thor as zerg. Too many zerglings die, and not all can surround, roaches get blasted away, hyrda are squishy but possible, banelings killing one looks hilarious, but not effective at all, mutas... Eh, if you stop them from clumping (magic box. Term is retarded but everyone knows it) it's pretty effective, infestors... lol. Neural parasite is the best they can do with it, which is good, but too bad infestors are squishy as hell. The only good counter to them are broodlords, which are t3 or 3.5. Either way, thors are op against zerg, but if they balance for z v t, toss can easily be op against t. It's a hard balance, because stalkers do extra dmg to it, void rays can kill it, and immortals are sorta a direct counter to thors and siege tanks. It used to be really easy to kill thors earlier. You used to be able to feedback them and drop their hp a lot if they were sitting around. Most people didn't use their ability. In regards to tech structure requirements though... Zerg is based around that, and toss have quite a few of those. I hate how useless the twilight council and dark shrine are. Mostly twilight council. All it does is open up the path again, and give you two upgrades. No immediate help or units, just a speed bump to ht/dt. As if it didn't take long enough to get ht out with upgrades. Ya, Zerg definitely lacks in the cost efficiency. But due to their explosive economy they seem to do alright. I actually like magic box vs Thors, does alright (and I like the term magic box, it makes more sense in BW though). I agree with you on tech structures, except for the twilight council. Legs is a pretty huge upgrade that turns all zeals into a scary threat, and without it DTs would be too threatening too early. I do wish they only had one structure for DT/HT though, so that one could open DTs and have the HT followup already paid for. The legs are important, but why not just put them somewhere else? Like the templar archive, or in the cyber core but require templar archive. It's just a speed bump building with two upgrades, which you may not always get.
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:20 pm
Immortal Nobody I am of the opinion that the Terran Thor is too easily attained and too easily massed. This is a problem in that the Thor is a Tier 3 unit. It could be argued that the Thor is a weak unit on its own but when massed and/or supported by any other unit composition it becomes a serious threat to any opposing army. I believe the problem lies in the short tech path. If you look at all the other T3 units in the game, including the Battlecruiser, you find you have to go a little out of your way to attain them. But the Thor is practically handed to you.
If you look at it, the Thor requires a Factory with an attached Tech Lab (which you'll have anyway) and an Armory (which you'll be getting anyway). So the Armory performs two functions: Providing upgrades for your mechanized ground and air forces and unlocking the Thor for production.
Now, I understand that none of the races are supposed to be mirrored, but if you look at all other structures of the same nature as the Armory (including the Engineering Bay) you find that none of them perform a tertiary function beyond upgrades for your army and unlocking various supporting structures (which in some cases unlock further tech paths, namely the T3 path).
Look at the other T3 units in the game. They all require long, convoluted tech paths to be navigated. The Thor is the only exception. Why is this? Why is it just handed to you? While you're considering that keep this in mind: The Thor has the fastest build time of all the Tier 3 units. So it has the fastest build time as well as the fastest and most simple tech path. They are fast, however they are also one of the SLOWEST units ever! If the terran were to fast Thor, his bio army will be weak, but his mech army will be strong. Take advantage of this. Tier 1-2 Units will easily clean this up.
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:20 pm
Onos I remember the thor being considered 2.5, since starport was considered t3? The problem is though, there is no cost effective way to counter the thor as zerg. Too many zerglings die, and not all can surround, roaches get blasted away, hyrda are squishy but possible, banelings killing one looks hilarious, but not effective at all, mutas... Eh, if you stop them from clumping (magic box. Term is retarded but everyone knows it) it's pretty effective, infestors... lol. Neural parasite is the best they can do with it, which is good, but too bad infestors are squishy as hell. The only good counter to them are broodlords, which are t3 or 3.5. Either way, thors are op against zerg, but if they balance for z v t, toss can easily be op against t. It's a hard balance, because stalkers do extra dmg to it, void rays can kill it, and immortals are sorta a direct counter to thors and siege tanks. It used to be really easy to kill thors earlier. You used to be able to feedback them and drop their hp a lot if they were sitting around. Most people didn't use their ability. In regards to tech structure requirements though... Zerg is based around that, and toss have quite a few of those. I hate how useless the twilight council and dark shrine are. Mostly twilight council. All it does is open up the path again, and give you two upgrades. No immediate help or units, just a speed bump to ht/dt. As if it didn't take long enough to get ht out with upgrades.
thor would most likely be called tier2.5, though some might say it's t3
battlecruiser is definitely tier3.
but uh... i don't think thors are too "fast" to get, but i do think their splash is really gay!
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Reply
