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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:30 pm
Since I don't ladder all that often anymore, I'm just gonna go ahead and post all of my replays.
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:32 pm
Gold Salt vs Silver Effergy ZvZ Salt opens up with a 5RR, which kind of semi-failed, but it kept me locked in my base for most of the game until I push out spine crawlers and get some zerglings in his largely undefended bases.
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:30 pm
Markous vs. Effergy ZvZ Markous was very, very stubborn. After quickly decimating his army with banelings, and putting heavy pressure on his main, I thought I had won the game. Little did I know, he hid his expansion on the other side of the map, and I didn't know about it till I had completely swept away his main. It then turns into an epic macro battle where I build a combination of banelings, hydras, speedlings, and broodlords while he goes for mass roach/muta.
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:41 pm
I liked the first replay quite a bit simply for the sake of showing just how important macro is, and how little it matters what units you are using so long as you have superior macro.
Banelings and zerglings are not a very good way of dealing with roaches, and yet you won because they took too long to expand, they didn't keep building workers, their economy was too weak to support an army and as a result they lost. Had they taken their expo earlier, built more drones, and not been so aggressive they could have won that match.
The second match had me nearly pulling out my hair and I noticed a theme of yours from the first and second match, beyond the fact that you insist on trying to counter roaches with banelings and it's just not working.
But the big mistake you're making and I've done this a lot too is getting tunnel vision and becoming TOO aggressive. You attack, do a bunch of damage, and you're in a really decent position and so you get this idea in your head that he's almost done and all you gotta do is put the nail in the coffin and start playing to take the win and kill him right away.
This is a very dangerous mindset to get into, you should rarely be thinking of wiping him out and taking the win so much as increasing your own position, put yourself in a better position. Instead of attacking, attacking, attacking, and losing wave after wave of zerglings for little to no damage, consider after doing all that damage, taking another expand, trying a tech change, spreading out your map control and field of vision.
You should always be playing with the thought that this match could continue going for another 20-30 minutes, don't let your macro slip just because you know they're almost dead, even if they're down to their last building, keep making units, keep planning your next expansion, keep spreading creep and keep spreading your field of vision, you don't always have to run in and take the win right away. It's a hard not to get yourself into that tunnel vision, but you'll find your play increases a lot more as a result.
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:23 pm
C4D I liked the first replay quite a bit simply for the sake of showing just how important macro is, and how little it matters what units you are using so long as you have superior macro. Banelings and zerglings are not a very good way of dealing with roaches, and yet you won because they took too long to expand, they didn't keep building workers, their economy was too weak to support an army and as a result they lost. Had they taken their expo earlier, built more drones, and not been so aggressive they could have won that match. The second match had me nearly pulling out my hair and I noticed a theme of yours from the first and second match, beyond the fact that you insist on trying to counter roaches with banelings and it's just not working. But the big mistake you're making and I've done this a lot too is getting tunnel vision and becoming TOO aggressive. You attack, do a bunch of damage, and you're in a really decent position and so you get this idea in your head that he's almost done and all you gotta do is put the nail in the coffin and start playing to take the win and kill him right away. This is a very dangerous mindset to get into, you should rarely be thinking of wiping him out and taking the win so much as increasing your own position, put yourself in a better position. Instead of attacking, attacking, attacking, and losing wave after wave of zerglings for little to no damage, consider after doing all that damage, taking another expand, trying a tech change, spreading out your map control and field of vision. You should always be playing with the thought that this match could continue going for another 20-30 minutes, don't let your macro slip just because you know they're almost dead, even if they're down to their last building, keep making units, keep planning your next expansion, keep spreading creep and keep spreading your field of vision, you don't always have to run in and take the win right away. It's a hard not to get yourself into that tunnel vision, but you'll find your play increases a lot more as a result. sweatdrop I realize that banelings are not the best approach the roaches now. I don't know why I thought they would be a good investment in the first place. It really did scare me to find that Markous had an expo all along. I think I only won the big army clash because I had maxed out ground armor.
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:34 pm
TheGayDude & REL vs. PyschoB & Effergy PvT/Z I'll admit, I had really poor mid-game macro this game (flinging those zerglings at the cannons wasn't the smartest course of action either xd ) but the early cannons and phoenixes had me freaked out. But what makes this interesting is REL's rage against his teammate, which starts back-and-forth blaming of why they lost.
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:06 pm
Evataph TheGayDude & REL vs. PyschoB & EffergyI'll admit, I had really poor mid-game macro this game (flinging those zerglings at the cannons wasn't the smartest course of action either xd ) but the early cannons and phoenixes had me freaked out. But what makes this interesting is REL's rage against his teammate, which starts back-and-forth blaming of why they lost. The game was meh but the amusing part came from their argument, bickering like a married couple over who's fault it was they lost. Both of them sucked, pretty badly in my opinion and relied too heavily on that contain. I liked how REL tried blaming TGD for losing to a drop, as if a marine drop is something only a low level noob would fall for, but really the med drops are utilized at all stages of play, Fenix being one prime example, who is an insanely good player, playing against insanely good opponents, and even at that stage of play you see med drops all the time. Neither one had a defense against a med drop, which is pretty sad considering it should have been foreseen and thus prevented by forward placing the phoenixes or observers to catch the med drops inbound. I was really impressed with how well I predicted each move in in this match, but that's kind of irrelevant. That cannon contain was such complete fail, what is the point in throwing down a contain like that if they can get their natural up and running without a problem? They'll just tech and continue as if normal until they can crush those cannons making them a waste of resources, he should have cancelled his proxy pylon inside your partner's base as soon as it was spotted and ditched the cannon rush contain altogether and transitioned into something more standard, like 2 gate robo or 4 gate, would have put him in a much better position.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:18 pm
Gold Nubskill vs. Silver Effergy PvZ Effergy vs. Fynnegan ZvZ Gold Fome vs. Silver Effergy ZvZ Gold Seragon vs. Silver Effergy Zvz Jay vs. Effergy PvZ Now the reason I'm posting these all at once is because I lost all of them (in a row, actually). And I would like to know what exactly I'm doing wrong so I can fix it and be better. So if any of you could take the time to watch and comment, I would appreciate it. :3 Nubskill rushes void rays. Totally catches me off guard and he later comes back to mop up with carriers and zealots. Fynnegan just out-macroed me. By a lot. He probably could've just stormed my base at any time and killed me. I can't recall what happened with Fome. Same with Seragon. And then Jay just pulls a cheese and rushes me with zealots after a ton of failed proxies.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:50 pm
Game 1 against Nubskill:
Immediately, a lot of it comes down to really early game mistakes, you do good at building your spawning pool around 14, but then you fall behind in workers, falling to 11 workers for a good period of time, sitting on over 200 min and a handful of larva, so you're falling behind in early game economy.
Next around the 5 minute mark I'm noticing a 2nd spawning pool? That's kind of, not necessary and I hope that was just a serious blunder on your part, because it's useless and could have been got you your natural expo up instead.
Next I'm going to note your response to void rays, you pretty much crippled immediately from seeing them, and just let your units get fried, furthermore, your response was to waste a bunch of workers building spore crawlers, and try to rush the hydra den, when really, this threat isn't that big of a deal. It's 1 VR right now, a better response would have been to build a second queen, maybe ONE spore crawler, and keep your units close to your base, defending with queens, two queens can easily clean out a VR, and queens are always handy to have around, spore crawler's effectiveness wears off over time.
Next I'm wanna note your resources tab around 8:30 mark and tie it back to what you have been doing, you'll notice you're very gas heavy, you have TOO much gas, and not enough minerals, this is the sign of someone trying to tech too fast, by getting a bunch of gas, when really what you need is minerals. Consider what your minerals would be at right now, if you didn't tech to Lair so fast, if you didn't get that 2nd spawning pool, and instead has a natural and had some of those lings been drones instead. The worker count is 15/24 you're clearly not droning enough at this moment, because you're worried about that single VR. I'd recommend watching Day9's Newbie Tuesday Daily about zerg player's not knowing when they should be building drones and when they should be building offensive units.
If you're noticing you're sitting on a lot of gas, then consider pulling 1 or 2 drones from your gas line and put them into minerals temporarily until you have stronger mineral economy and have regained your pace, having them collect gas but not having any minerals immediately means that gas is wasted.
Also note when you attack, don't do it in waves, sending your main force out, and then sending out a couple of reinforcements once that main force is already halfway across the map is not a good idea unless you're already winning that fight, those small reinforcements are seldom going to change the tide of that battle and will usually just become free causalities.
Basically for this match key things:
Drones: build them. Expand, as a Zerg player you want to spend as little time one basing as possible, the more hatcheries you have the easier it is to macro a large force.
Queens: Use them, they are great for spawning larvae and spreading creep, but they can also be an effective anti-air unit against early rushes. They also reinforce your ground defences, 1-2 queens and 2 spine crawlers will fight off a considerable sized force long enough for you to reinforce.
Scout: Spread your overlords and a couple of zerglings to spot for key things, like pushes, rushes and expansions.
Be mindful of your min and gas levels and adjust accordingly.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:10 pm
Game 2 Against Jay:
Alright, I'm already noticing once again early game minor mistakes, and that's your pool timings, your pool is going down at 14 which is fine, essentially, but then you throw down your gas at exactly the same time, remember this is going to cut you back by 2 workers for a period of time, and thus you are losing minerals.
I understand your thought process of getting the gas fast so you can get speed researched for your lings, and if that's the case, consider instead going 13 gas, 14 pool.
Timing on this is important: You want to watch your minerals closely and maintain optimal mining time, to do this, keep building drones around 13-14 drone mark, then watch your minerals, once you jump to around the 150 min mark, drop your gas down and build another drone, you will then have 200 min for your pool very shortly, and the right number of drones, also your extractor will finish just in time so that once you place 3 drones on that gas, you will have 100 gas seconds (or if you're really good immediately) after your pool is done, thus gaining you optimal mining time and improving your timing.
That annoying little probe really became a problem for you by going around dropping proxies in every random direction, and you kept falling for them, instead of trying to pick off the pylons, pick off the probe with speedlings, once it's done, then start taking out pylons, and you did react well by throwing down roaches to defend your expo, but it didn't really matter because your expo had nothing mining out of it anyways, making it essentially just a waste of 300 minerals.
A couple spine crawlers and a couple of queens could really bolster your forces at this moment, also, your gas is getting a little bit high and although I understand you need the gas to support your roaches, you also need the minerals to continue building them 2 workers on gas is actually enough to maintain 1 base worth of roaches, the 3rd is just excess.
I'm also going to note your larvae producing does slip, but it's understandable when you're under pressure.
What was with the spore crawler? You had no reason to believe air was incoming, a spine crawler would be reasonable but a spore crawler no.
Your opponent wasted LOTS of minerals on wasted pylons, and was incredibly aggressive right off the bat with lots of units and they're only running on one base, yet they somehow have more workers and income than you, this is a clear sign that you are simply not droning enough.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:22 pm
C4D Game 1 against Nubskill: Immediately, a lot of it comes down to really early game mistakes, you do good at building your spawning pool around 14, but then you fall behind in workers, falling to 11 workers for a good period of time, sitting on over 200 min and a handful of larva, so you're falling behind in early game economy. Next around the 5 minute mark I'm noticing a 2nd spawning pool? That's kind of, not necessary and I hope that was just a serious blunder on your part, because it's useless and could have been got you your natural expo up instead. Next I'm going to note your response to void rays, you pretty much crippled immediately from seeing them, and just let your units get fried, furthermore, your response was to waste a bunch of workers building spore crawlers, and try to rush the hydra den, when really, this threat isn't that big of a deal. It's 1 VR right now, a better response would have been to build a second queen, maybe ONE spore crawler, and keep your units close to your base, defending with queens, two queens can easily clean out a VR, and queens are always handy to have around, spore crawler's effectiveness wears off over time. Next I'm wanna note your resources tab around 8:30 mark and tie it back to what you have been doing, you'll notice you're very gas heavy, you have TOO much gas, and not enough minerals, this is the sign of someone trying to tech too fast, by getting a bunch of gas, when really what you need is minerals. Consider what your minerals would be at right now, if you didn't tech to Lair so fast, if you didn't get that 2nd spawning pool, and instead has a natural and had some of those lings been drones instead. The worker count is 15/24 you're clearly not droning enough at this moment, because you're worried about that single VR. I'd recommend watching Day9's Newbie Tuesday Daily about zerg player's not knowing when they should be building drones and when they should be building offensive units. If you're noticing you're sitting on a lot of gas, then consider pulling 1 or 2 drones from your gas line and put them into minerals temporarily until you have stronger mineral economy and have regained your pace, having them collect gas but not having any minerals immediately means that gas is wasted. Also note when you attack, don't do it in waves, sending your main force out, and then sending out a couple of reinforcements once that main force is already halfway across the map is not a good idea unless you're already winning that fight, those small reinforcements are seldom going to change the tide of that battle and will usually just become free causalities. Basically for this match key things: Drones: build them. Expand, as a Zerg player you want to spend as little time one basing as possible, the more hatcheries you have the easier it is to macro a large force. Queens: Use them, they are great for spawning larvae and spreading creep, but they can also be an effective anti-air unit against early rushes. They also reinforce your ground defences, 1-2 queens and 2 spine crawlers will fight off a considerable sized force long enough for you to reinforce. Scout: Spread your overlords and a couple of zerglings to spot for key things, like pushes, rushes and expansions. Be mindful of your min and gas levels and adjust accordingly. Yes, that second spawning pool was supposed to be a Roach Warren, but I didn't notice until it had finished. xd My finger slipped and instead of pressing Z I pressed A. Didn't notice until it was finished and I practically head-desked. I was planning on going Roach/Hydra, but the early void ray freaked me out, and I tried to tech hydra too fast (like you said). I also never thought about an expo until I started noticing I didn't have enough minerals to keep up with steady unit production. I then freaked out about that, and was too impatient to wait for my minerals to build up to make one. I'm always reluctant to take off gas workers since in my mind 2 or 3 drones doesn't make such a huge enough difference in mineral rate to even bother (and it brings down gas income so much). I'll keep that in mind though. I actually read in a few threads that it's better to fast-expand against Terran/Protoss and 10-pool with other zerg players (to help ward off 6 pools when spotted). I haven't played a single ladder 1v1 since the 5-streak loss though, so I have yet to see if it makes a difference. And I'm going to watch this Day9 video right away, as that has always been one of my biggest questions about zerg. Other races don't have to think about it like we do. I guess I do underestimate queens. I've always neglected creep-spread, and I really only see them as larva machines.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:48 pm
Game 3 against Seragon:
Once again I'm going to note your pool gas timing and how it affects your drone line.
Next I'm going to note your scouting, it's good to scout, a great idea to scout, your timing for the scout was pretty decent, could have been delayed a LITTLE bit longer to save you some extra mining time, as the only sort of valuable information you're going to get from scouting when you do is to see if there is a 6 pool cheese rush coming, which is good to know, but still, could be delayed a little bit longer.
When you did scout however I don't think you paid close enough attention to what you were scouting for, you saw the second in base hatch and a spine crawler go up, yet you push with about 6 zerglings right off the bat. That spine crawler will mop up all of your zerglings no problem, it's not a good idea to be pushing, it's a better idea, since you know he has the crawler up and an in base hatch, to continue droning since you already have an expo up (which I don't like the placement of btw).
Also those lings defended the FE in case of a push, or simply sit 1 or 2 outside his base to scout for an incoming push at which point you can build your units to defend, but instead you lost 3 lings and did 0 damage.
I'm gunna go back to your expo for a second here and note the placement and it's function. Most importantly it's up for a fair deal of time before you begin producing anything out of it, this is lost minerals, keep an eye on the left side of your screen for notification when that hatchery is done and immediately begin producing a queen and drones to begin saturating. Also the placement is not a good idea, it feels safer to have a random expansion hidden off in the corner producing free resources but it's not, taking the natural expansion is a better idea as it's easier to defend, by connecting your bases through creep and producing all your units together and keeping them nearby, also it's good for moving drones around to saturate your bases properly.
Your play for a good deal afterwards is pretty decent, you could still drone a little more, but you did a good job of really devastating his worker line and defending at the same time, however I question your teching path.
You're gone into a midgame and you still don't have anyway of dealing with air units, no number of baneling zergling is going to fight off a handful of mutalisks, and you don't have enough queens to deal with them either. However you're teching to an infestation pit hive? What was the point in that? Those buildings could have easily been delayed for an earlier spire or hydra den, and then begin producing THOSE units, next you begin to build ALL your tech buildings, which is a good idea in a long game, where the sides are really even and you're both sitting on three mining bases and macroing hard and might need to tech swap at any given time, but at this point, not really. You build all of these tech buildings, but don't have the economy to support mass tech units, so you continue to build more zerglings and banelings, which will ultimately delay you from getting the tech units you need.
Also your macro is slipping up, which happens a lot for zerg players because they are limited by larvae, so the clear solution is to get more larvae, build another hatchery, even if it's an in base hatchery, this will help you produce more units.
I find for Zerg, they reach a critical mass for macro on their third hatch, at which point, if you're on top of your macro game you cannot fall behind in units, because you are just producing so many units out of 3 hatcheries with queens that it becomes ridiculous. Anytime you have too many minerals, consider throwing down another hatch to increase your larvae production.
I also want to note something from all your games, control groups of your friend, use them. You'll find it's so much easier to macro and control your forces in control groups.
Hatch 4 or hatch 5 is a pretty common favourite, and will increase your ability to macro 100% easily.
All in all, what REALLY lost this match for you was inability to macro, I would definitely suggest taking a page out of my book, and just spend a bunch of games losing to work on your macro, focus entirely on your macro skills, producing units constantly, maintaining your economy and expanding, also knowing your timings for buildings and building the RIGHT buildings to best suit your plan.
Building one of everything so you can do anything you want isn't going to work very often, going into a match you need to have a plan already in mind, and then flex with it slightly according to how your opponent reacts.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:13 pm
Game 4 against Fynnegan
Noting your timing on the gas pool, this time a fair deal better, could still be delayed by a couple more seconds, but it's a lot more minor this time around, and I just want to note how much better it feels when comparing your workers and income levels, as well as the timing on your speed research.
2nd overlord was a bit early, but so minor it's almost not even worth noting, other than I'd like to share a good timing for that overlord, is to build it on 16, because at this point your pool isn't quite finished yet, and the overlord will be finishing JUST as your reaching supply block, and put you in the perfect position to make your first queen and 2 lings. However like it said, building an overlord 1 drone early is so minor it's ridiculous.
Once again, too much gas too early, consider pulling the one drone off of gas. My timing for gas (unless I'm building lots of roaches and banelings and getting upgrades) is 3 until you have 100 for speed, then pull a drone until you're ready to tech to lair, then put your third drone back on gas once the lair has begun, this will give you enough gas to build your tech building once the lair has finished, if you planning a gas heavy build, or need to maintain roach or baneling production during this time, also throw down your second gas at his time and saturate with 2-3 drones depending on how your mineral line is doing.
I'm gunna note the first push was probably a pretty reasonable choice, however it was ineffective because you allowed your units to attack in waves. The speedlings moved up first, got killed, and then the banelings moved up, and got killed.
You want to keep them closer together, and always want your banelings to be the first into the fray. send them in to soften up the units, do the damage and then let the zerglings clean up.
The second push however was completely UNREASONABLE, you felt like you did a lot of damage and if you quickly rushed in a bunch of zerglings you could probably clean him out, but it didn't work. You should have seen the roaches, the zerglings, judged that your army was too small to deal with that, and then pulled back, and macrod more.
3rd push is becoming stubborn, you're now way behind in economy, drone count, and you've lose a lot of units for several expensive attacks that didn't earn you anything, and really had I been this guy in his position, you would have lost right now immediately after that 3rd push. Because if he is to push right now, you will lose so much it would have been impossible to get back in.
Finally your expansion goes up after 10 minutes, not a good idea to delay that expo for so long, and once again it's in a very vulnerable position, which becomes very evident at the end of the match.
So essentially the reasons for losing this match come down to stubbornness with your attacks, and just very weak macro, it wont matter how many tricks you learn, or how good you get with your unit control if you can't macro properly and really pin point important timings.
I promise you, that if you can figure out a few key timings, improve your macro, and focus your builds instead of trying to do too many things at once, your win/loss ratio will change drastically, and you'll find everything so much easier to manage and the game will actually change completely for you.
I take a lot of flack for doing straight muta-ling all the time, having one strong core build and just executing it game after game, however, it works, and it doesn't work because of the units I am using specifically, seldom is my muta build a muta RUSH, it's a very simple, very standard build.
The reason it's so effective is because I've memorized and practised the build so many times. I know the timings pretty well, I know the control groups fairly well, it's easy to macro and the units themselves are fairly easy to control. I go into every match with a plan already in mind and therefor I can execute it properly each time, and as a result my win/loss ratio has taken a drastic improvement from the position I was about a couple of months ago when I just could not win.
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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:47 am
pulled two random replays from this thread and decided to watch them and input my two cents. ended up with 3set vs Fome and 4set vs Seragon, both incidentally being Zerg.
your problem seems to be matchup-specific. in both games you generally play better than your opponent, but lose simply because you cannot properly respond to the enemy's unit composition. learn that Zerg vs Zerg is mostly consistent of Zergling/Baneling and Mutalisk. your ground game in both matches are superior but your air department is seriously lacking. Hydralisks are not a proper response because all of the previously listed units above can simply counter them when produced en masse: Zerglings swarm Hydras by moving and attacking faster with bigger numbers. Hydralisks take bonus damage from Banelings. Mutalisk stacks achieve critical mass due to ease in mobility and can beat Hydralisks much faster. Corruptors and Queens are too inefficient against larger numbers. the only seemingly unit left to counter Mutalisks is Mutalisks.
your macro is a bit random at times. sometimes very good, sometimes not. a lot of the times I checked, you had less workers than your opponent, despite the fact that you set up an expansion much earlier. if the expansion is not being properly used, most of the time it's well better off producing 300 minerals worth of units. you need to manage your vespene gas count, also. obviously workers should go mining gas right away when the Extractor finishes, but I found your problem was a surplus, not a deficit: workers need to be taken off gas in order to mine minerals in the event that your mineral gain is insufficient. make extra Hatcheries+Queens later into the game when your expansions become saturated with workers that way you are able to keep your mineral count at an appropriate level.
supply needs to be properly managed. Overlords are being produced far too late to the point where it can possibly affect your timings. as a general rule of thumb, you should produce one Overlord every time one of your Queens begins a Larva injection. if you find that one of your Hatcheries has 14 Larva or whatever sitting around, use judgement to determine how many should become Overlords. maybe two or so if you are producing 1-supply units such as Zerglings or Drones, or 3+ if they are 2-supply units such as Roach or Hydralisks.
research tech upgrades. the only one I saw you upgrade in both matches were Zergling speed. no Roach speed, no Hydralisk range, no Ultralisk armor (which looked odd, having Ultralisks sitting at one armor. it's like a Roach, then) or Baneling speed. tech is important. a similar scenario is akin to having a Bioball with no stimpack or a Colossus army with no range upgrade. regular upgrades (as well as Zergling speed, I guess) are important, but the additional range or speed or whatever can make or break the game.
i think that's all for now. at least, that's all I can think of. C4D already said most of what needed to be said, so I guess I'm just reinstating the issue(s).
so that's a few replays down, now I need to roll around to Immo and C4D's thread-replays. hopefully I'll have some time tomorrow.
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Primity Aurora Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:03 pm
Effergy vs. GoldinamiteZvP Alright, so I've majorly improved my macro. Sudden, sloppy zealot rush (you can tell he wasn't planning on it from the get-go) kills half my drones, and messes up my gas timing by a lot and I end up getting behind on everything else. He then puts a contain on me, which works for a portion of the match, but I eventually build enough units to pull through (attack upgrades really helped too). He never expanded beyond his natural, which is probably why he failed to keep up after he lost his advantage.
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