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Sanguina Cruenta
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:49 pm


This is a question based on a couple of experiences I've had and my automatic emotional reaction to them, and me wondering about how I felt.

How do you feel when someone who has made oaths to the same god/s you follow breaks that oath to follow other god/s?

How do you feel when someone comes into your religion, but has broken oaths to other god/s to do so?

What about when this other god is the Christian god? Does it affect how you feel when they come into your religion, whether or not you're happy to accept them, etc?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:26 pm


I think it depends on the oath.
For me, the reason oaths are important is that it makes a statement about how reliable someone is and what their name is worth. Their integrity and their value as a person.

I am okay with someone breaking their word for the right reasons, so I look at it on a case by case basis.

Esiris
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:56 pm


Esiris
I think it depends on the oath.
For me, the reason oaths are important is that it makes a statement about how reliable someone is and what their name is worth. Their integrity and their value as a person.

I am okay with someone breaking their word for the right reasons, so I look at it on a case by case basis.
I agree. I've been through Catholic Confirmation, but I left Catholicism because it wasn't right. The only reason I went through all those ceremonies and sacraments was because my family wanted me to. So, while I did make the oaths, I broke them because I felt my calling elsewhere.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:06 am


Those are logical responses wink I'm asking about purely emotional reactions.

Sanguina Cruenta
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ncsweet

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:45 am


I tend not to count oaths that were made before one was of an age to actually understand what it was that they were doing. I realize that it is a very common practice (Baptisms, Christenings, etc...), but to hold someone to something that they themselves didn't make, or worse didn't realize exactly what they were doing, I don't think is fair.

Part of the reason I get a bit bent of our shape when I see teens saying that they are going to do a "self-dedication" ceremony, is because I don't think they have truly stopped to consider what it is that they are doing. Though I guess it would ultimately depend on how such a thing was worded.

I do think it is possible for such an oath to be broken, but it is between that person and his/her Gods. Because there are times when a relationship ends, and new ones form, but it shouldn't be something that is taken lightly.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:32 am


When your family may or may not have forced on you at a young age when you haven't been properly exposed to other ideas.. I think it's a little more understandable.
So sometimes, it's okay. Doing it just for the hell of it and being wishywashy isn't fair to the gods though, and just not right.. they should take it seriously.

I guess part of me sees it as.. if not even your god(s) can trust you to keep to your promises, how can I?

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Esiris
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:45 am


Sanguina Cruenta
Those are logical responses wink I'm asking about purely emotional reactions.

sweatdrop
It'd still depend on the oath to me. I might be more upset that someone made a stupid oath to begin with.

Ummm... Can you write up some examples?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:51 pm


Sure! I'll tell you what inspired this question in the first place.

Some time ago someone I knew left Heathenry for Islam. I don't dislike Islam. Its values are different to my own, but most Muslims I've met are pretty cool people and the faith as they practice it is accepting and respectful. But it troubled me on an emotional level, not because of where this person was going but because she had made a commitment to these deities and broken it.

I don't hold anything against this person; it's not the person who troubles me so much as the situation itself. I worked on this emotional reaction because I recognize that it's not a reasonable one.... she'd broken a commitment but I'm not familiar with how strong that commitment was, so I can't comment on it.

The other example was a person on Livejournal whose journal I followed. She was a Heathen, and a devout one; she had written and self-published devotionals, she fasted, she worked hard on spiritual goals. Then for a year, I didn't use that journal or follow the people I had friended on there. When I came back to it, I discovered she was working towards officially converting to Judaism. This threw me utterly, because i had been privy to her spiritual journal, her hopes and aims and troubles, and I knew how dedicated she had been. How could she turn her back on deities she'd loved so well? I admit I unfollowed her, and not just because her journal was no longer relevant to my interests. I felt uncomfortable around her.

But I wondered to myself how I would feel if someone had a serious commitment to, say, the Egyptian deities and left them for my gods. Would I be uncomfortable around them, because of the way in which they broke oaths they'd made so seriously? Are these people to be trusted?

I don't feel so bad were they Christian beforehand, and I'm not sure whether I'm excusing it away because I never found anything there for myself, or whether it's indeed more logical because Christianity is presented as the only theistic option for many people, whether they're raised Christian or not. Maybe it's because I've met so many people who came out of Christianity for whom it was a difficult journey, so I understand the reasons for breaking these oaths and the way in which it is done.

So... I think if it were a stupid oath to begin with I'd be more annoyed, because they weren't serious about something I am serious about, but less disturbed by it, because it wasn't a genuine bond that was broken. Again I don't know the ins and outs of most situations because they are personal - this is merely my immediate emotional reaction.

Sanguina Cruenta
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:00 pm


San, maybe the ones who left the same deities you follow probably had a difficult journey while following those deities. No one's path or walk with those deities will be the same. They could have been as serious as you are, but as time wore on they might have realized it may not be for them, they reached a point where it's become difficult etc. We all face that point, I think.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:05 pm


Again, Tsukiyo, I'm not really interested in their reasons. I'm talking about emotional reactions. Logic doesn't factor into it.

Besides, that's a poor excuse. If the gods who want you see fit to make your path a difficult one, then your path is a difficult one. No one pretends it's easy. Piking out is only going to make it worse, surely? Breaking oaths when things get tough is defeating the purpose of making an oath.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:00 pm


Sanguina Cruenta
Again, Tsukiyo, I'm not really interested in their reasons. I'm talking about emotional reactions. Logic doesn't factor into it.

Besides, that's a poor excuse. If the gods who want you see fit to make your path a difficult one, then your path is a difficult one. No one pretends it's easy. Piking out is only going to make it worse, surely? Breaking oaths when things get tough is defeating the purpose of making an oath.
I agree. But what constitutes an oath in Heathenry? Just a promise to a god/the gods? I only ask because I'm so familiar with the Christian formatted, laid-out sacraments and I haven't found anything similar in the Pagan beliefs (but that's probably because we don't have much historically to look at).

I also agree with Esiris: I'm Spock when it comes to judging people. Some things I'm like, "Yup, s/he's a jerk and should have rocks fall on them," but most things I can see both sides of the coin.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:52 am


My emotional reactions tend to be curiosity, instead of discomfort.

I guess in those cases I'd be a bit more polite than "Well, don't let the door hit you on the way out."

On an emotional level, I wouldn't want someone who didn't feel they belonged trying to force themselves into "my religion".

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:15 am


Sanguina Cruenta
Again, Tsukiyo, I'm not really interested in their reasons. I'm talking about emotional reactions. Logic doesn't factor into it.

Besides, that's a poor excuse. If the gods who want you see fit to make your path a difficult one, then your path is a difficult one. No one pretends it's easy. Piking out is only going to make it worse, surely? Breaking oaths when things get tough is defeating the purpose of making an oath.
Well there could be other factors affecting their life, psychological issues, etc.

It's not so much logical but emotional. Different people have different emotional strengths and have different emotional tolerances for certain things. Some people croak under pressure. Some people work well under pressure.

Some people fit in with a religion. And others don't.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:58 am


It's difficult. My immediate reaction is that an oath is an oath and not to be broken lightly. It would probably make me immediatly uncomfortable but I would soon want to know more before actually judging a situation. Sometimes, a person changes so much that the oaths they made previously were basically sworn by a different person. I would prefer some form of formal acknowledgment of this though. Other times, they just don't seem to understand that such things are important and not just a game. That I have issues with.

CalledTheRaven
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Adalyna

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:48 pm


My personal take on it would be this, I broke my covenant with YHVH and so I broke an oath. An oath I was brought into when I was too young to tell up from down, but an oath, nonetheless. I try not to use this as an excuse to break promises hear on out, but I think knowing that I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. That said, when it comes to material promises to people in this world, I haven't been very good about being a person of my word, something I'm trying to commit to changing about myself, even if it means not making promises anymore until I know i can keep them. sweatdrop Sorry if I veer off topic a little.
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