Welcome to Gaia! ::

Gaian Atheists United

Back to Guilds

A safe and friendly place for Atheists to be themselves. 

Tags: Atheism, Theology, Philosophy, Science, Logic 

Reply The Main Discussion Place
I propose a perplexing puzzle :/

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

Undecillion

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:16 pm


INTRO:
I denounce the idea of faith in anything significant enough to keep in mind. That is, If your telling me that you ate cereal this morning and I have no reason to believe otherwise, I'll believe you. However, when speaking about God, I'd say it's only logical that we examine the evidence before jumping to a conclusion of such magnitude.

However, when presented with the knowledge that I place faith in the idea that this universe is real. I don't know what to think.

PREMISE:
According to the burden of proof, I should take a stance in which I say I don't believe the universe is real, but it could be. Otherwise I'd be asserting something without any evidence.

QUESTION:
If I were to take the stance that the burden of proof seems to demand and say that I don't believe that anything really exists, that what consequences could result from such a belief?
For example: Would "reality" still necessarily remain constant withing it's own context? What other beliefs would I have to change due to such a belief? etc...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:07 pm


bump?

Undecillion


Le Pere Duchesne

Beloved Prophet

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:24 pm


This is a problem with people who take things to silly levels, and leads to Cartesian-doubts and solipsism.

The easiest response to think of is this: Kick a rock. Did it do what you expected? Did it move as a rock of it's weight should, when propelled by the force of your kick? Good. The universe exists enough to be consistent enough for it to not matter if you are merely a brain in a jar. Go about your life as you normally would.

See, the problem with this kind of cosmic level doubt is this: It doesn't actually matter. Someone who thinks the world doesn't really exist is still going to look before they cross the road.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:45 pm


Gracchia Blanqui
This is a problem with people who take things to silly levels, and leads to Cartesian-doubts and solipsism.

The easiest response to think of is this: Kick a rock. Did it do what you expected? Did it move as a rock of it's weight should, when propelled by the force of your kick? Good. The universe exists enough to be consistent enough for it to not matter if you are merely a brain in a jar. Go about your life as you normally would.

See, the problem with this kind of cosmic level doubt is this: It doesn't actually matter. Someone who thinks the world doesn't really exist is still going to look before they cross the road.


I appreciate the reply and understand what you are getting at, however the notion that "it doesn't matter" is irrelevant to what I was getting at. (Though still agreeable to an extent) You see, the question was asked not because I am concerned with whether or not I really exist, but it was asked because I am concerned with about my intellectual consistency.

Though as of lately, I have realized that such prevalent consistency in the universe's laws and my perception of such actually counts as a form of relatively reliable and empirical evidence, and to a far greater magnitude than that of religious experiences due to its greater level of prevalence and consistency.

Undecillion


Yur-Yur Yuri

Beloved Phantom

9,450 Points
  • Invisibility 100
  • Ultimate Player 200
  • Survivor 150
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:01 pm


Gracchia Blanqui
This is a problem with people who take things to silly levels, and leads to Cartesian-doubts and solipsism.

The easiest response to think of is this: Kick a rock. Did it do what you expected? Did it move as a rock of it's weight should, when propelled by the force of your kick? Good. The universe exists enough to be consistent enough for it to not matter if you are merely a brain in a jar. Go about your life as you normally would.

See, the problem with this kind of cosmic level doubt is this: It doesn't actually matter. Someone who thinks the world doesn't really exist is still going to look before they cross the road.


I agree.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:36 pm


Undecillion
Gracchia Blanqui
This is a problem with people who take things to silly levels, and leads to Cartesian-doubts and solipsism.

The easiest response to think of is this: Kick a rock. Did it do what you expected? Did it move as a rock of it's weight should, when propelled by the force of your kick? Good. The universe exists enough to be consistent enough for it to not matter if you are merely a brain in a jar. Go about your life as you normally would.

See, the problem with this kind of cosmic level doubt is this: It doesn't actually matter. Someone who thinks the world doesn't really exist is still going to look before they cross the road.


I appreciate the reply and understand what you are getting at, however the notion that "it doesn't matter" is irrelevant to what I was getting at. (Though still agreeable to an extent) You see, the question was asked not because I am concerned with whether or not I really exist, but it was asked because I am concerned with about my intellectual consistency.

Though as of lately, I have realized that such prevalent consistency in the universe's laws and my perception of such actually counts as a form of relatively reliable and empirical evidence, and to a far greater magnitude than that of religious experiences due to its greater level of prevalence and consistency.

Yes, if you take empiricism to its logical conclusion, yes, doubting the very existence of the universe outside your mind is demanded. Because empiricism states that we can only know what has happened before, and not what will happen in the future, however, it is incompatible with the modern world. No doubt empiricists find some refuge in quantum level nonsense, but the fact is this: If I fire a gun, it will work because we know how to make guns, we know how to make the bullet fit the barrel, how t put enough powder in the bullet to propel it without blowing the gun apart, and how to do that reliably and consistently. If, by some chance, the gun doesn't work as expected this only proves the inadequacy of empiricism further, because upon investigation we can find the cause of the malfunction, and prevent it from happening again.

Empiricism denies all this. Only that which has happened has been proven, not that which will happen. The empiricists love to cite the black swans at Perth. Swans were white, everyone knew it, until upon reaching Perth they saw black ones. And yet... For all the supposed intellectual failings of the materialist world view, it is empiricism that is unable to account for the progress of modern industry. Every time something goes as expected they cry out "but maybe not next time!" like those religious types who admit that while, "yes, this miracle was proven to be a hoax, or to have very knowable material causes, nevertheless, not all miracles have been proven to be such!"

Le Pere Duchesne

Beloved Prophet


Undecillion

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:46 pm


I thank you for your response, but I have a few questions.

Gracchia Blanqui

Yes, if you take empiricism to its logical conclusion, yes, doubting the very existence of the universe outside your mind is demanded. Because empiricism states that we can only know what has happened before, and not what will happen in the future,

I have never really studied empiricism so I hope you don't mind me asking: empiricism states that we can only know what has happened, but does it say anything about using inductive reasoning to form conclusions about something?

Quote:
however, it is incompatible with the modern world. No doubt empiricists find some refuge in quantum level nonsense, but the fact is this: If I fire a gun, it will work because we know how to make guns, we know how to make the bullet fit the barrel, how to put enough powder in the bullet to propel it without blowing the gun apart, and how to do that reliably and consistently. If, by some chance, the gun doesn't work as expected this only proves the inadequacy of empiricism further, because upon investigation we can find the cause of the malfunction, and prevent it from happening again.

What alternatives are there to empiricism, that you believe would be more adequate for such things?
Quote:
Empiricism denies all this. Only that which has happened has been proven, not that which will happen. The empiricists love to cite the black swans at Perth. Swans were white, everyone knew it, until upon reaching Perth they saw black ones. And yet... For all the supposed intellectual failings of the materialist world view, it is empiricism that is unable to account for the progress of modern industry. Every time something goes as expected they cry out "but maybe not next time!" like those religious types who admit that while, "yes, this miracle was proven to be a hoax, or to have very knowable material causes, nevertheless, not all miracles have been proven to be such!"

Does empiricism really leave no room for doubt in such things? Did it really say that all Swans had to be white?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:36 am


I look at it this way: In any environment, you're going to need a few core assumptions that make reasoning possible. For example, in math I must assume that 1=1. I can't really prove it, but if I don't assume it to be true, I can't do calculus, or even addition. One of the core assumptions of atheism is "our reality is real". For reasoning to be possible, we must make that assumption. I'm not saying our perceptions cannot be mistaken, they can. I'm saying that there is a reality that we can perceive.

So, yes you are asserting something without any evidence, but it's little more than assuming 1=1. If others want to live in a world where they can pretend 1=2, that's their problem. Since it's a implied assumption, there's no burden of proof.

kyousuke9876


Koravin

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:31 am


I'm pretty sure you can prove 1 = 1. Also, you do have reason to believe the universe is real. You do have sensory input. You don't have that with God. You interact with the universe. You use all your senses to perceive the universe. Could you be wrong about its existence? Yeah, but you still have reason to believe its there. You have none of that with God.
Reply
The Main Discussion Place

 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum