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As the title says, this is a discussion about feminism in fiction (and if this is not the right forum, feel free to move it, though I saw no other place except the Chatterbox where it could go). First things first, defining feminism. Dictionary.com says:

Feminism - noun
1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3. feminine character.

I have also read somewhere (and I would link it if I remembered where I read it) that feminism is, in addition to the above, about choice. The freedom for a woman to choose what she wants to do and who she wants to be. And that, in my humble opinion, is feminism in its purest form.

There are some feminists who might argue that any woman who depends on a man cannot be a true feminist. I say to them, what if that is the life she chooses? Just because a woman is a housewife does not mean she is a "slave" to a man, or "not feminist." Feminism is more than just turning over and conquering traditional roles.

There are truly crazy feminists who not just demand equal treatment to men (which is a worthy goal in and of itself), but go so far as to eliminate men from their lives as much as possible. They spell "woman" as "womyn," engage in double standards where if the man does it, he would get slaughtered, but if the woman does it, it is "liberating," and claim women to be superior to men.

Personally, this minority of feminists is missing the point. If feminism is about equality, why are women suddenly better than men?

In a way, this line of thinking is justified, given that for thousands of years, men have usually been higher than women, have had more rights, and have in most things been the dominant gender. And in a way, I think they are right, at least in terms of women---fictional and non---finally getting their dues.

Thus, I would like to have a discussion on women's roles in works, and the kinds of female characters we like to read about.

One thing I would like to point out is the Bechdel Test. It is a simple test with three rules:

-The story must contain at least two female characters
-That have a conversation with each other
-About anything except a man

It is surprising the amount of works that fail this relatively simple test. It is true that most writers are male, and thus women in fiction are not yet given their dues. But that does not mean that women in works that fail the Bechdel test are not strong women in their own rights; just that they are under-represented. However, it could also be justified given the nature of the work.

Off the top of my head, 9 has just one female character, 7 (and arguably 3 or 4 depending on your stance on the twins). 7 is the most reasonable of the stitchpunks, and one of the strongest, most reliable characters. Given that the stitchpunks are pieces of the male inventor's soul, it makes sense that only one---maybe two---of them is female.

The Toy Story series has a similar justification for failing the test (minus the third film, which passes): the toys belong to a little boy. Naturally, most of the characters are going to be male. However, this does not mean the few female characters are not good ones. Jessie and Barbie are both strong and awesome female characters, and even Bo Peep, being the "typical" female, has a lot of redeeming qualities.

But on the other side of the coin, the Bechdel test does point out the flaws and the unfortunate stance in terms of female characters, showing that the woman's role in the story does center around a man or men.

I will conclude with some points of discussion:

-Feminism to you
-Female characters (of any medium) you adore and why
-Female characters (of any medium) you feel are weak/stereotypical
-Feminism in fiction in general, past and present
-Feminism in your own works

I will be adding to this myself in a separate post; this is long enough.

Haha! Thanks for creating this thread. At my birthday party and friend Erin showed me what she was currently reading, it was a some feminism book from the 1800s. She called it real feminism, not just man hating. Her boyfriend then said, "But isn't that what feminism is?" We then educated him on the truth. I also pointed out to Erin that true feminism is still what it use to be, it's just crazy sells so the media, when discussing feminism, focuses on bra burnings (which actually never occurred) and man hating woman. It gives the rest of us bad names.

I think a great example of true feminism in media would the Batman the Animated Series (the sequel more so). The funny part about this is this show was created for boys (and apprently me blaugh ) One episode is particular would be Girls Night Out, or something like that. It was the episode when Bruce was away, and Supergirl chased escaped Limewire to Gotham City. There Supergirl met up with Batgirl and Limewire met up with Harley and Ivy.

No only did this past the Bechdel Test but I kind of love how the episode ended with Barbara and Kara lounging around (painting their nails I believe) after taking down the three supervillians. These two girls are so bad a**, but hey, if they was to do girly things like painting their nails and sharing makeup tips who's to question them? Do it and I met Supergirl will shot laser beams out her eyes and give you a lobotomy.

Actually, the comic Batman can be see as very feminist. Just look at where Batwoman and Batgirl came from. They were originally created to dispel rumors that Batman and Robin were gay. They didn't do anything, they were just groupies. Since the reboot all three Batgirls have been kickass and Batwoman, I love this, is a lesbian...and also kickass. You've got characters like Harley Quinn (granted, she from the previously mentioned BtAS), Poison Ivy, Renee Montoya, all three Batgirls, Batwoman, ect. Of course this all depends on the writer, but Batman is pretty feminist.

I think another great example would be Star Wars Expanded Universe. Look at those great and strong characters like Leia Organa Solo, Jaina Solo, Mara Jade Skywalker, Tenel Ka Djo Chume, Tahiri, ect. I haven't got to where Allana is born yet, but judging by her mother I can only assume that she's kickass too. These ladies deal with real galactic problems. They are Jedi. They can kill you!

Something that annoys me is that in X-Men Evolution everyone accused Jean Grey of being a slut because she was in a love triangle with Scott Summers and that one other guy who's name wasn't important for me to remember. Oh my God! She was a high school student. Cut her some slack. Nothing she did was slutting. Scott was only a friend, who obviously liked her. The other guy was clearly who she was interested in, but he turned out to be a jerk and Scott turned out to be the guy who was always there for her. I hate the double standard in media. If she's a slut than what the Hell is Captain Kirk? Or Daniel Jackson.

Speaking of Stargate this show is also a great for feminism (I'm excluding Universe since I haven't seen much of it since it sucks, but seriously, cut the Senator's daughter some slack, from what I've seen she's not a slut either). Look at Samantha Carter, smartest character in the franchise and I won't want to mess with her. She's not just the chick with a budding, unspeakable or doable romance with Jack O'Neil. She's an intelligent scientist who reaches the rank of General (I think think) by the movies. In fact, the chick of the show would be Daniel Jackson (or perhaps Vala later on). Dr. Frasier was also a strong character. Vala was pretty damn girl and used seduction to get her way, but you can't deny her badassness.

The spin off, Atlantis, had even more badass females. Four out of five seasons had a strong female lead the expedition (Elizabeth Weir 1-3 and Samantha Carter in season 4). Dr. Jennifer Keller become Head Medical Officer and though some people hate her (because she's not Kaylee) you have to admit she takes up a level in badass (thought not much, she only had two years, unlike Daniel who had 10) from her first apprentice to her last. Teyla Emmagan, though, is the picture perfect Amazon. This beautiful woman was a leader to her people and all around badass who could even beat John Sheppard in a fight. After the birth of her child she doesn't lose her badassness but instead because a team mom, fighting for the protection of her son.

I've noticed I haven't put down anything about a woman who has chosen a simple life where she is supported by a man she loves. I guess it's just not that interesting, it doesn't sell. Any woman who is portrayed that way is portrayed negatively. This is a problem.

...wow, long post xd

KaNugget: Batman: The Animated Series is well-known for passing the Bechdel test. Name an episode where a female character is either the main character, or a large secondary one. It is easier to count the ones that do not pass the test, especially in episodes where Harley and Ivy appear together.

As you pointed out, Batman (any medium except the movies, really) is good for non-traditional strong female characters. And even when they are not out kicking a** and taking names, a lot of them are seen doing very feminine things, like Batgirl and Supergirl (they were in bathrobes and eating ice cream. If they were doing their nails, I do not recall) as mentioned, but Harley and Ivy especially are often seen shopping, cooking, cleaning, and just overall doing "girly" things to bond. And while I do like how the "Harley and Ivy" episode did have some straw feminist tendencies (Having Batman weighed down by "objects of female domestic slavery" like a mixer and vacuum, for example), it also showed that all of the female characters present were capable of doing anything a man could do by their own merits.

Harley Quinn is yet another favorite female character of mine. And she can actually, in a way, be seen as a deconstruction of Sally's character.

Like Sally, Harley's existence (by her own doing, not for the sake of the story) revolves around the man she loves. She is obsessed with the Joker, and is willing to sacrifice her own happiness to be with them. She has even more than once risked her own life/safety to his benefit. What is her reward?

There are times where her loyalty pays off. She has lasted the longest out of any henchmen the Joker has had, and he has more than once returned her affections. However, just as often, he is abusive towards her, and more than once left her for dead. Her willingness to give up her own happiness has more than once nearly gotten her killed.

Unlike Jack, the Joker is not grateful when Harley makes these risks for him, and he is often more than happy to just leave her to die. And unlike Jack, the Joker's affection is debatable in whether his affection is true or not (personal opinion: I think it is, but the Joker is proud of being insane and love is a "sane" feeling. Thus, he abuses Harley to convince himself he does not love her. However, I simultaneously accept the "heartless killer" theory too. Both are logical).

If there is one good thing that comes of this, it is the fact that Joker and Harley's relationship is shown as a textbook case of domestic abuse. It is not painted in a pretty light, and the creators do not ever justify the Joker's abusive actions. Harley might justify it to herself, but how many times has Ivy or Batman pointed out that the Joker is simply using her for his own gain, and that he does not really love her? Harley is the only character who sees the relationship as any form of good.

Still, for all her faults, Harley has proven that she is smart and agile, and able to take care of herself. There have even been times in both the comics and the cartoon where she has stood up to the Joker and made the decision for herself that he is no good for her (but seeing as status quo is good she is hopelessly obsessed with him, she is bound to bounce back to him sooner or later).

I never liked Jean Grey in any version of X-Men because she kind of comes off as Sue-ish to me, but even I will admit she is a lot better in X-Men: Evolution (in fact, Evo is about the only version of X-Men I can stand her in).

Personally, if I were to pick one female character from that franchise, I would pick Storm. Not even in just that franchise, actually---I think if there was one character who could define feminism, Storm would be my pick. She is graceful, sexy without being a slut, willing and able to work with men as equals, gentle but strong, level-headed, motherly, firm in her beliefs, and even though she is an exotic, her actions speak a lot louder than her beauty. And best of all, she chose her path, and came not because Xavier wanted her to, but because she felt it was right for her.

11inda: You may find it stupid, but unfortunately even in today's society and in many parts of the world, feminism is still relevant, because truth be told, women are not equal to men, even in first-world countries (for example, compare the salary of a man to a woman in the same job. In a lot of cases, the man makes more for the same type and amount of work). I agree that it is stupid that women get put down because of their sex, and I agree that it is even stupider that it is sometimes women themselves that keep the stereotypes going.

Not all religions put down women. I am a Mormon, and I find it funny that other religions actually mock us for making Eve more of a hero as opposed to damning humanity, and stating that a man and woman are equal partners in marriage. I also know there are a few religions that believe in equality of male and female---I think Wicca is one of them, if I remember right, and I believe the concept of Yin and Yang plays into this. Nonetheless, I know some Eastern religions do focus on equality, not to mention a lot of ancient religions centered around a Mother Goddess, showing that at some point in history, women were deemed more important than men. Women are, after all, the life-bearers and the child-rearers, and whether men like it or not, their role in everyday life is very important in shaping not only their children, but society itself.

I do agree with you about the media pushing a woman's (and man's, but not as often) beauty above all else. In fact, I think it was Britain that was pushing for putting a warning similar to those on cigarette and tobacco ads on all 'shopped images because of the unrealistic standard they set up. It is a horrid double-standard in Hollywood that a man can get a good role no matter what he looks like, but a woman must be at least reasonably pretty to get a good acting role---and if she is ugly, she gets to be a villain, peasant, or some other "non-glamorous" role.

As I mentioned, just because a work does not pass the Bechdel test does not mean its female characters are not strong or worthless. If that is what works for your story, that is what works for your story. ^^

Why is feminism stupid? As Nightmare1 said



Feminism is about equality. The truth is there still are a lot of double standards out there. Look at what I wrote about Jean Grey and Captain Kirk. Yes, there are also double standards against men and those are also just as big of a problem. When a man is rape people assume he's gay. When a man is a victim of abuse he is weak. When domestic violence is reported, even if the man reported it, sometimes he is the one taken away. But the reason a double standard exists for men is because it exists for woman. If woman weren't seen as weaker a man who is abused by a woman wouldn't be seen as weak himself.

Nightmare1, I wanted to respond to something you said before but forgot to.



That is along the thinking that whites owe blacks. This line of thinking is just crazy. I can't tell you how many times I've been called racist just for simply being white. "Your ancestors enslaved my ancestors, therefore it's only fair that I get better treatment now." First of all, my ancestors didn't even own any slaves. They were either living in Portugal, poor Irishmen, or rich Englishmen in the North. Sure they were racist as Hell, but they didn't own any slaves. My rich ancestors didn't even own any, they were pilgrims turned bankers who lost it all eventually.

But whether or not my family owned slaves is besides the point. Even if they did it still doesn't mean I owe any black person something. I personally never owned a slave (I do own my friend Michelle's soul, but I bought that fair and square). Which brings me back to my point. I would never got up to one of my male friends and say "I'm better than your and your a sexist pig because your male ancestors treated my female ancestors poorly." Women and men need to be equals, like white and blacks (and all other races...and all other genders blaugh )

That is...ridiculous beyond words. You would think a woman who has experience, of, oh, being a woman would have more insight than a man in teaching others about women. Truth be told, the fact that the class even exists is retarded. Why is it that women need to be studied? Have we learned all we can about men? Why is there no "men studies" class? If there was ever proof in a "civilized" society that there is no true equality between men and women, that is it.

Re: Kirk
Zapp Brannigan of Futurama was based off of him. And Zapp is an even bigger shameless womanizer, and a lot more sexist.

Re: Bechdel Test
I do agree that a woman does not have to kick a** to be strong, as evidenced with Sally (she is probably my favorite female character ever outside of my own works).

Mrs. Weasley would be another good one. Wife and mother, the thing that matters most to her is her family---and even before she took out Bellatrix Lestrange, she commanded respect and discipline without raising a wand. Considering Hermione was able to get Fred and George to stop testing their Wheezes products on first-years by threatening to tell their mother...yeah. We need more Mrs. Weasleys in this world.

Actually, Woman Studies is an actually degree.

Yeah, in my ideal world, we wouldn't need a women's studies class. It's a shame that so many history/literature classes are often essentially "men's studies." A lot of history classes hardly mention women's contributions, and in some English lit programs you basically read works written by dead white men. Luckily my English program offered a decent amount of class options and I was able to get some variety.

To bring it back to writing a bit, there's been some discussion lately about whether there are enough books targeted at men, and some complaints that some covers of books men want to read are too feminine. The question they ask is why the covers can't just be neutral? And by that, I can't help but feel they mean "why can't the covers appeal to men?" The issue is that there have always been tons of books targeted at men, but women buy a lot more books, so it makes financial sense to draw in a female audience. And regardless, no one is stopping men from picking those books up. I get that some people find it embarrassing to walk around with certain covers, but that's not really the publisher's fault that they have an insecurity issue. Maybe that's one way ereaders will help those readers--let them read what they want without anyone seeing (much as I like sneaking peeks at what people are reading on the bus).

(And I love Molly Weasley, too. whee )

I think feminism is a very good thing. It is coming more and more out into society through books and the such, as you have pointed out Nightmare.

However, I can take a joke and I do love Zapp in Futurama. It gives the whole feminism approach a funny side to it. I'm a huge 'all for women' supporter though I barely show it, most of my main characters are male. In fact, I hate having a female main character.

Personally, I don't believe in marriage or having children. That is a reason I don't like writing about women. It is the fact that any woman who doesn't want to become a baby machine in fictions is seen as a lesbian. All my friends are guys and they tend to joke about me being a lesbian because I don't want to pop out babies or get married. As much as I love men, they can be narrow minded haha.