|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The_Master_Wielder Captain
|
 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:02 am
Senate Bill #1070.
So, for those who don't know, Arizona, a state in the southwest of USA that borders Mexico, passed a legislative bill concerning illegal immigration, which is a fairly large problem in America, or at least is seen as one. It was contested by the National Government, and the National Gov't won. Many parts of it were thrown out (If memory serves. Cuz this was a while back.)
The most contested part of the bill was thus:
Police can check the Legal Citizenship of ANY person suspected of being in the country illegally.
Many people considered this to be Racist, an example of Profiling, as we have many people of a Mexican or similar persuasions coming here illegally, getting through the border, past the National Guard. All those who were against the bill, were against it because they thought it was Racist. (Or because they were here illegally.)
On the Opposite side of this, a Police Training Video for the Procedure of checking the citizenship of someone was released. There was NOTHING racist in it. All the signs they were to look for could apply to anyone of any race.
Now, I figured we could use some Political discussion, to sharpen our minds. So, I thought to put this topic in. If anyone knows about the topic, I would be grateful if you would join me in debating this topic. For the Record, I support the bill.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:14 am
I fully support this bill. In the first place, I'd like to state that I lived in Arizona for two years. Not nearly as long as some other people, but long enough to realize how illegal immigration was effecting a lot of things. Those of us in the northern states can easily see it as a racist thing, a socialist-type action by the government, or something that is clearly just not a big deal. I have to be completely honest, I was happy to hear about the bill. First off, I never saw the video. What I can say, though, is that they are going to be VERY careful with how they approach that kind of thing.
First off, when 9-11 happened, people were saying that they were going to be racially profiling by pulling people aside at airports and other points of security and searching them if they looked at all suspicious. My mother and sister were two of a number of people that I know who were pulled aside and search. My sister was 7 years old and blonde. My mother's a 5'3 white woman. Now, if that's racist, I'd like to see the definition being used.
An example that hits even closer to home: I was on my way to Cali from Phoenix, where I lived at the time. I got a little confused by a mandatory detour taking me off of the highway on an offramp where I was met by a checkpoint. For those of you who have never been through one, let me explain: Small buildings and trailers, about ten cop cars, and a bunch of suited men walking around with guns and big dogs. Sounds like something out of a movie, but that's what I passed through. They didn't stop me or anything, just let me pass, but I didn't know if it would be okay to get back on the highway. So, I asked the guy, "If I go this way, can I just get back on the highway?" He made a face at me, took off his glasses, and asked if I was a US Citizen, and if he could see ID. I was from Chicago and had no idea where I was or where I was going. But I gave it to him, and he kindly gave me directions. He had reason to believe I wasn't from the area, and that was cause enough.
The fact is, it's not going to be the way people are threatening.
On the topic of getting rid of illegals, which is a HUGE controversy in and of itself right now...I'm for it. very much so. For so many reasons that I'm not going to get into because I have learned it is not worth it anymore. I know how I feel on the matter, and why, and that's all that matters to me on that part of it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:57 am
All I know is that the bill now makes it legal for them to check if you are a U.S. citizen, after they have already pulled you over. Like if you get pulled over for a faulty tail light and they find out you're high as a kite. I don't know that if the reason for being pulled over could be the fact that they think you aren't a U.S. citizen or not.
My only problem with the bill is that the only reason they seemed to pass it in the first place, was to spur the federal government to do what they are supposed to be doing in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:15 pm
True. See, the thing is the Government hasn't been doing enough against illegal immigration. If anything, it's been almost condoning it lately. As well, Pres. Obama promised Governor Jan Brewer a large number of troops to patrol the border. The deadline came, the deadline went. No troops.
|
|
|
|
|
|
The_Master_Wielder Captain
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:40 pm
I support this bill wholeheartedly. I know that here in Canada, Illegal immigration really isn't a problem, but then again, getting Canadian Citizenship is easier than catching something from a five dollar hooker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:07 pm
I don't support this bill at all. Why? Well, because I AM a Hispanic immigrant. I came to the US with my family because our family wanted a better lifestyle, one where my brother and I would have the chance to have a future and go to a good school. Our country just wasn't at the same level as the education here in the US. A lot of immigrants just want that; a better lifestyle. You might think "Well, that's not the US fault! Gtfo!". But if the US was in a horrible state and, let's say, Russia was now a power nation that provided jobs and a better lifestyle, I bet half of the population would leave the US too. And then Russia would complain and they would try to get rid of all the Americans and the Americans would be offended because they don't mean any harm and so on.
Also, I'm a legal resident but I'd HATE to be stopped every now and then just because I look like an illegal alien. Sure, they're not gonna abuse of that power...now. There's bound to be a cop or two out there who will abuse of this power, just like there are cops out there who ALWAYS abuse of their power. heck, I've been stopped in the middle of the sidewalk before (And I don't live in Arizona) for no apparent reason at all. And to be fair, I don't even look Hispanic! They stopped me, ask for an ID, and when they realized I was clean, they had to let me go. And everyone stared.
I understand why the US wants to get rid of illegal immigrants too. I truly do. But they take the jobs that Americans are too lazy to get. Janitors, people who work in the field, construction workers, maids, etc. Seriously, *I* wouldn't get a job like that simply because I know I can do better. But someone's got to do it. Maybe they do need to get their papers in order first, but they're not doing any harm. So no, I don't approve of this bill. And I also have my own opinion and my reasons. So in order to prevent any kind of argument, I'll try to stay out of this topic.
There are two things people shouldn't discuss: religion and politics. It's hard to find a common ground. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:11 pm
I empathize with BOTH sides of this controversy, and find both sides have valid AND invalid points. At this point, what I'm leaning towards is letting the bill pass, and watching the results in Arizona *like a hawk* to make certain no profiling/racism/BS takes place.
If it appears as if AZ. law enforcement is abusing this privilege, then the law gets revoked. Period. If they remain in the green, then let it continue, with careful watching.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:41 pm
We are starting to be like other nations. Other nations dont like outsiders. They been doin this for many reasons. With war,genicide, and things along that line. It makes sense. You see alot more guards all over the place. Some people feel that we keep letting people have a better chance in life by letting them come here.
To real and truthful, no-body really payed a close attention to someone being illegally here. But when "The War of Terror started" people paniced over every thing. People have messed up at some points that people dont know about that my family members that are vets know about. They cant tell all they here. But the general thing is, people get told what they want to hear. Leading to problems that soon lead to this bill.
Like K said. Some people dont take jobs that others have not filled or wanted, then they bullcrap around saying immigrants taking American job. If no "American" took that job or wanted it, hows that wrong. Also some people just flat out have issues.
Also the world is racist in many different ways. There are people they are high in power that could be racist or had some problem before with a "race". People never notice it, might be hard to notice.
Fact is the world is racist and there is no way for a single person to stop it. It cant be helped how people are raised.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:28 pm
K` the warrior I don't support this bill at all. Why? Well, because I AM a Hispanic immigrant. I came to the US with my family because our family wanted a better lifestyle, one where my brother and I would have the chance to have a future and go to a good school. Our country just wasn't at the same level as the education here in the US. A lot of immigrants just want that; a better lifestyle. You might think "Well, that's not the US fault! Gtfo!". But if the US was in a horrible state and, let's say, Russia was now a power nation that provided jobs and a better lifestyle, I bet half of the population would leave the US too. And then Russia would complain and they would try to get rid of all the Americans and the Americans would be offended because they don't mean any harm and so on.
Also, I'm a legal resident but I'd HATE to be stopped every now and then just because I look like an illegal alien. Sure, they're not gonna abuse of that power...now. There's bound to be a cop or two out there who will abuse of this power, just like there are cops out there who ALWAYS abuse of their power. heck, I've been stopped in the middle of the sidewalk before (And I don't live in Arizona) for no apparent reason at all. And to be fair, I don't even look Hispanic! They stopped me, ask for an ID, and when they realized I was clean, they had to let me go. And everyone stared.
I understand why the US wants to get rid of illegal immigrants too. I truly do. But they take the jobs that Americans are too lazy to get. Janitors, people who work in the field, construction workers, maids, etc. Seriously, *I* wouldn't get a job like that simply because I know I can do better. But someone's got to do it. Maybe they do need to get their papers in order first, but they're not doing any harm. So no, I don't approve of this bill. And I also have my own opinion and my reasons. So in order to prevent any kind of argument, I'll try to stay out of this topic.
There are two things people shouldn't discuss: religion and politics. It's hard to find a common ground. Keyword: You are a legal resident.
In any other country, crossing someone's borders without permission can result in death, disappearance, or life in prisons. They don't send you back home so you can try again. Your family will probably never hear from you again. It's illegal. Sure, it'll suck if you have to be pulled over, but I think you missed the part about them not profiling.
And I couldn't agree more with your last statement.
I shouldn't be talking about this. Politics and religion are something I stay very far away from in conversation. It's all opinion, and pretty much any "fact" is debatable and usually biased in some way or another.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:12 pm
I agree with K' on this one. I do not support the bill, because I believe as well that it causes racial profiling. However, I would like to see this training video, so that I can re-evaluate my opinion accordingly.
Unfortuantly most of the above arguments have been based on feeling rather than facts, so it does not give me an adequate ground to debate against. So, I will simply address the number one point, that illegal immegrants are in fact illegal. Although this is true, I would like to make the point that our economy survives because of illegal immegrants. See legal immegrants, like K's family, can get jobs just like every other American. Every job I've ever applied to requires me to provide proof that I am indeed an american citizen, and this happens to everyone, regardless of gender, race or religion. It is /because/ illegal immegrants cannot get those jobs, they do jobs that don't require paper work, jobs like working on farms, jobs that we need done in order to support our economy. And no, that doesn't include a job like being a janator. Illegal immegrants cannot become janators, sorry. Arizona is hurting their own economy by putting this law into effect. They're getting rid of the workers who are illegal, in addition to all the people who will leave just due to the offensiveness of the law. (Insert sarcasim here) But at least, when their economy get's even worse, Arizona will have made a stand against the "illegal" in illegal immegrents.
If you really want to get rid of illegal immegrants, Americans /have/ to start working farms. There's no other way around it. I don't mean a few Americans, I mean thousands.
Of course, I agree with K' about feeling simpathy for the plight of illegal immegrants. But I do not attend to try to make an argument based on my moral biases.
I'd like to close with story that has a point, I promise. I decided to go to a bar one night because my friends were having a party there. IRL I'm 23 years old, well within the legal drinking age. I wasn't planning to have anything to drink, because I had to drive home the same night, and was only planning to stay for a little while. There was a bouncer at the door, apparently this was a place where they only allow 21 and up. So I show them my only piece of Identification, my driver's liscence. And they refuse to let me in because I don't look like the picture, even though I recite verbatum all the information on my driver's liscence. The moral of the story? If that was a police man, and he was unsure about the validity of my driver's liscence (let's face it, fake driver's liscence's are a dime a dozen, whether your illegal or not.) That could easily land you a night in jail, and on the flip side an illegal immegrant could quite plausaby get away with an fake one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:54 pm
I live on a farm. And the guy who owns the place won't hire the legal people who apply for jobs unless they are his family. One simple reason: He'd have to pay them more, and deal with a lot more paperwork. So he lets illegals work here because it's easier for him. There are people more than willing to do work for him, under a legal contract, which he would rather pay under the counter to make his own life easier. I know lots of people, personally actually, who would love to do some of the work out here that they can't because legally they would have to make minimum wage. Pay them under the counter, and they are going to make less money than they can afford to live off of. That's why we have minimum wage. So yes, they may be doing jobs that we don't want to do, but if we needed to do them, there are plenty of people who are willing to do dirty work. Just not many people who want to pay them when they could save time and money by hiring people who shouldn't be here in the first place.
As a note on your final statement: Just because they can doesn't mean that they will. They could easily shoot me in a parking lot late at night when nobody is around, too. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. And even if you do sit in jail for a night, you win in the end. Because when they find proof that you're legal, and let you out, you can sue their asses for taking you in without just cause.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:21 pm
xX Ratchet Lombax Xx To real and truthful, no-body really payed a close attention to someone being illegally here. But when "The War of Terror started" people paniced over every thing. This is wrong. Politicians have been arguing over the same exact things since my Father was my age. The only difference is how the people in the generation of, or slightly before/after, my Dad go about it now a days. I'm sick an tired of everyone blaming everything on the panic after the terrorist attacks. Yes it did have major back lash, but its not the source of every problem in the U.S.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:25 pm
o-KARMA-o I live on a farm. And the guy who owns the place won't hire the legal people who apply for jobs unless they are his family. One simple reason: He'd have to pay them more, and deal with a lot more paperwork. So he lets illegals work here because it's easier for him. There are people more than willing to do work for him, under a legal contract, which he would rather pay under the counter to make his own life easier. I know lots of people, personally actually, who would love to do some of the work out here that they can't because legally they would have to make minimum wage. Pay them under the counter, and they are going to make less money than they can afford to live off of. That's why we have minimum wage. So yes, they may be doing jobs that we don't want to do, but if we needed to do them, there are plenty of people who are willing to do dirty work. Just not many people who want to pay them when they could save time and money by hiring people who shouldn't be here in the first place.
As a note on your final statement: Just because they can doesn't mean that they will. They could easily shoot me in a parking lot late at night when nobody is around, too. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. And even if you do sit in jail for a night, you win in the end. Because when they find proof that you're legal, and let you out, you can sue their asses for taking you in without just cause.
(note: below I use the terms companies and employers interchangably, what I mean is any body of people who gives money in exchange for services) Aha, you are getting to the root of the problem, people who are willing to employ illegal immegrants because of their cost effeciency. That, I'm sorry, to say has very little to do with illegal immegration at all. And it has very little to do with people who are willing to accept less than minimum wage to make ends meet (which by the way can include legal citizens, as long as it's under the counter). It has to do with unlawful, ie against the law, buisness practices. I am in total agreement with you on this one Karma, but why don't you stop blaming it on the people who are desperate enough to take the money, and start blaiming it on the people who are giving them the money. It is against the law to pay less than minimum wage to employees. But companies do it anyway. Why isn't Arizona making a law to crack down on people who are underpaying their workers, or to crack down on people employing illegal immegrants illegally? If illegal immegrants couldn't find work, then they would be out of Arizona in no time, and American workers could get those jobs. And it would be a lot more effective way to get rid of them than trying to pick them out one at a time. The cops should be spending their time getting these employers. The reason they are not is, it's profitable for companies to underpay their workers, naturally. Like you said, why would they pay more, when they could get the same job done for less. Arizona, like every other state, has the companies best interest at heart, not the people's. It thinks that by keeping companies going, they are insuring jobs, but jobs for who? Regardless, they would never risk putting a company in jeapordy, and having stocks fall. This brings me to the #1 reason American's are loosing their jobs. The perfectly legal method of outsourcing. It's illegal to employ workers /here/ for less than minimum wage, but not in India and other third world countries. There they employ tons, thousands, of people that here would be legitamate and desirable work for Americans, in some cases even white collared jobs. I'm talking about jobs like technical support, computer programming, and factory workers. I honestly think that if your largest concern is Americans loosing their jobs to people who are underpaid, I suggest you start asking the big questions. Why are these people being underpaid? And why are we letting this happen?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:11 pm
|
The_Master_Wielder Captain
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:30 pm
lol, well that was entirely uninformative. Tt was so wishy washy about this videos' ability to prevent racial profiling it's rediculous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
