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 Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:25 pm
Okay, this is really pissing me off, and it started from a thread that McPhee posted in the Pro-Life Guild.
Someone's sex and/or sexual orientation is NOT a basis for an arguement. No matter which side of the debate you are on, you must realize that the different sides argue different points. I don't say to the pro-choice males; "Well I'm a woman, since you're saying it's a woman's choice, I CHOOSE for abortion to be illegal. It's none of your business and my opinion is automatically more valid than yours so step off." In fact you'd probably think I was a complete moron if I said that.
In turn I hate to see choicers using this on male lifers. What you HAVE to realize and TRY to comprehend is the fact that we do NOT argue the woman's bodily rights, we argue the fetuses right to life. Simply because YOU believe that the woman's bodily rights over ride the fetuses right to life does not mean that WE automatically have to believe the same thing. And until we do that stating a males opinion is worthless, has no bearing as we ARE NOT concerned with whether the male, female or dog is pregnant we're concered with the life of the fetus.
This is the same deal for sexual orientation. Simply because a lesbian won't get pregnant by having sex (However she could concievably be raped and become pregnant.) and a gay male certainly wouldn't this does not make their points any less valid than a straight female pro-lifer. My opinion isn't half valid because I'm bisexual.
It hasn't shown up in here yet, and I hope it won't. Especially after me posting this. Continue arguing points, not attacking people for who they are personally.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:33 pm
Thanks for posting this, toxic.
I despise, absolutely DESPISE when people say that my opinion isn't valid because I'm a male, or I'm gay, or because I'm a male AND gay. It makes no difference as to who you are, only what you're arguing.
Just because I won't ever be pregnant, that doesn't mean I can't value human life.
And, just as an interesting side note, in this same thread where I was debating, someone said that It's hypocritical for pro-life people to be carnivorous, but not for pro-choice people to be vegetarians.
Double-standard, anyone?
stare
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:00 pm
Valid point. But would you say the same thing to someone who did not care because they weren't a woman? wink ((apathy annoys me))
By the way, you choosing for abortion to be illegal affects people ((actual breathing people)) other than yourself on a bodily, peronal level...so it doesn't count.
Hmmm...side point. No...I'll make a new thread...
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:40 pm
Shard Aerliss Valid point. But would you say the same thing to someone who did not care because they weren't a woman? wink ((apathy annoys me)) By the way, you choosing for abortion to be illegal affects people ((actual breathing people)) other than yourself on a bodily, peronal level...so it doesn't count. Hmmm...side point. No...I'll make a new thread...
Secondly, yes, choosing for abortion to be illegal does effect other people however the point was that if I set the same standard my opinion of abortion should automatically be more valid than any male choicer's opinion.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:50 pm
Someones sexual preference is not a deciding factor in their argument. But, their sex does. Personally, I think both pro-life and choice males are stupid; it doesn't affect them. I'm just more against pro-life, and more for pro-choice, because I am myself pro-choice. Same with a pro-lifer female as well, I guess.
And I am arguing the fetus, (1), has no rights as it isn't born yet and is a useless glob of gook with human DNA, (2) the woman has a choice whether to be a parent or not, (3) the choice to be pregnat or not, (4) you cannot choose what I do.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:54 pm
Mistress DragonFlame Someones sexual preference is not a deciding factor in their argument. But, their sex does. Personally, I think both pro-life and choice males are stupid; it doesn't affect them. I'm just more against pro-life, and more for pro-choice, because I am myself pro-choice. Same with a pro-lifer female as well, I guess. And I am arguing the fetus, (1), has no rights as it isn't born yet and is a useless glob of gook with human DNA, (2) the woman has a choice whether to be a parent or not, (3) the choice to be pregnat or not, (4) you cannot choose what I do. Quote: What you HAVE to realize and TRY to comprehend is the fact that we do NOT argue the woman's bodily rights, we argue the fetuses right to life. Simply because YOU believe that the woman's bodily rights over ride the fetuses right to life does not mean that WE automatically have to believe the same thing. And until we do that stating a males opinion is worthless, has no bearing as we ARE NOT concerned with whether the male, female or dog is pregnant we're concered with the life of the fetus.
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:56 pm
toxic_lollipop Mistress DragonFlame Someones sexual preference is not a deciding factor in their argument. But, their sex does. Personally, I think both pro-life and choice males are stupid; it doesn't affect them. I'm just more against pro-life, and more for pro-choice, because I am myself pro-choice. Same with a pro-lifer female as well, I guess. And I am arguing the fetus, (1), has no rights as it isn't born yet and is a useless glob of gook with human DNA, (2) the woman has a choice whether to be a parent or not, (3) the choice to be pregnat or not, (4) you cannot choose what I do. Quote: What you HAVE to realize and TRY to comprehend is the fact that we do NOT argue the woman's bodily rights, we argue the fetuses right to life. Simply because YOU believe that the woman's bodily rights over ride the fetuses right to life does not mean that WE automatically have to believe the same thing. And until we do that stating a males opinion is worthless, has no bearing as we ARE NOT concerned with whether the male, female or dog is pregnant we're concered with the life of the fetus. And simply because YOU belive I shouldn't have an abortion doesn't mean I don't think I should. domokun Edit: Oh, boy, my post here sucked. domokun
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:31 am
I'm not even arguing about abortion in this thread. I'm arguing some people's arguing tactics. That post had no relevance what-so-ever.
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:56 pm
toxic_lollipop I'm not even arguing about abortion in this thread. I'm arguing some people's arguing tactics. That post had no relevance what-so-ever. Hence me saying my post sucked. domokun
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Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:04 pm
Thank you, Toxic. 3nodding
Indeed, Pro-Life men's opinions matter, because we aren't mainly concerned with the women. They can do whatever they want with their own bodies, as far as I'm concerned.
However, that "doing whatever they want" ends when it touches another person. And since I consider the fetus to be another person, I don't believe they have a right to do anything harmful to it.
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:31 pm
toxic_lollipop Shard Aerliss Valid point. But would you say the same thing to someone who did not care because they weren't a woman? wink ((apathy annoys me)) By the way, you choosing for abortion to be illegal affects people ((actual breathing people)) other than yourself on a bodily, peronal level...so it doesn't count. Hmmm...side point. No...I'll make a new thread...
Secondly, yes, choosing for abortion to be illegal does effect other people however the point was that if I set the same standard my opinion of abortion should automatically be more valid than any male choicer's opinion.Oh I'm not saying a man's opinion is any less valid than a woman's...just that law cannot be passed just because someone says so ((that's tyranny))...but I understand what you were saying...just didn't like the analogy... As for the first paragraph...I was getting at apathy. Some men seem to have no opinion simply because they are men and beleive the issue will never affect them ((mostly because they don't care what a woman does to their body)) I'll be quiet now... *hangs head in shame*
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:09 pm
I.Am Thank you, Toxic. 3nodding Indeed, Pro-Life men's opinions matter, because we aren't mainly concerned with the women. They can do whatever they want with their own bodies, as far as I'm concerned. However, that "doing whatever they want" ends when it touches another person. And since I consider the fetus to be another person, I don't believe they have a right to do anything harmful to it. Yet you would give a fetus the right to do what it wants with the women's body, and the women cannot do what she wants to the fetus' body? I say we split them up, but that unfortunately leads to death in the fetus. If there was another way to protect bodily intregrity without sacrificing a fetu's lifes, i would be for that. But until then, abortion is the only way.
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:52 pm
Shard Aerliss Oh I'm not saying a man's opinion is any less valid than a woman's...just that law cannot be passed just because someone says so ((that's tyranny))...but I understand what you were saying...just didn't like the analogy... As for the first paragraph...I was getting at apathy. Some men seem to have no opinion simply because they are men and beleive the issue will never affect them ((mostly because they don't care what a woman does to their body)) I'll be quiet now... *hangs head in shame*
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Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:38 pm
Xanaphia00 I.Am Thank you, Toxic. 3nodding Indeed, Pro-Life men's opinions matter, because we aren't mainly concerned with the women. They can do whatever they want with their own bodies, as far as I'm concerned. However, that "doing whatever they want" ends when it touches another person. And since I consider the fetus to be another person, I don't believe they have a right to do anything harmful to it. Yet you would give a fetus the right to do what it wants with the women's body, and the women cannot do what she wants to the fetus' body? I say we split them up, but that unfortunately leads to death in the fetus. If there was another way to protect bodily intregrity without sacrificing a fetu's lifes, i would be for that. But until then, abortion is the only way. But who's actions started the life of the fetus? When you start something are you not responsible for it whether it is dead or living? Maybe you can say it's not a person, and it's inhuman, and it doesn't deserve to live because it is in my body... but with actions comes responsibility. If you abort the fetus to kill it, you should at least bear with the responsibility knowing you destroyed a life, potential or actual person does not matter, it is LIFE.
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Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:08 am
toxic_lollipop xd Took me forever to read that, but I did. ~hands you a cookie~ I get what you're saying, but it's the only senario that I could think of that might get across to some people. I wasn't going for a perfect analogy, just one that got my point across without me rambling. oooh...cookie *munch* FreeArsenal But who's actions started the life of the fetus? When you start something are you not responsible for it whether it is dead or living? Maybe you can say it's not a person, and it's inhuman, and it doesn't deserve to live because it is in my body... but with actions comes responsibility. If you abort the fetus to kill it, you should at least bear with the responsibility knowing you destroyed a life, potential or actual person does not matter, it is LIFE. So you're a vegan too right? you don't squish bugs, or ride in/drive a car, or use soap or drugs that were tested on animals... Humans wipe out "life" all the time, I'm killing living things right now with my immune system. As I equate a foetus with anything else living but non-sentient I give it the same rights as anything else living but non-sentient. I have no problem with killing animals for food, I have no problem with killing animals in the name of science ((though I do give a big damn about how these creatures live and die...)). So why should I have a problem with aborting something which would not even feel pain if it occured? Also, I accept aborting is taking "life." So is that OK? I'm bearing that knowledge. As for who's actions started the life, well just maybe they weren't mine... [EDIT] For idiocy...sorry I left it there so long...been away...
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