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So it seems that Smogon University has forced us to undergo yet another tier debate and as usual, I figured it'd be best to get the opinions from you, the members of D/P Gaming, on how you all feel we should go about dealing with this issue. If you wish to chime in, please post down an actual debate worthy post and keep all flaming to a minimum. I shall be keeping track of all the Pros and Cons gathered from this thread.

Keep in mind, no matter what the end result is for this two week-long poll, the Crew ultimately will have the final say on Salamence's fate, so if you want it banned/saved, make your debate as compelling as possible.

Pros

• 600 collective base stats
  
• Diverse Move pool
  
• Intimidate ability
  
• 1/2 damage against Fire, Water, Bug, Fighting-type attacks
  
• 1/4 damage against Grass-type attacks
  
• Immunity to Ground-type attacks

Con

• x4 weakness to Ice-type attacks
  
• x2 weakness to Rock and Dragon-type attacks
  
• Weak against Stealth Rock
  
• Poor Defense stats (HP, Defense and Special Defense)
  
• Mediocre Speed stat
  

Here are the reasons Salamence was first put up to the testing.

1. Salamence has amazing stats.
2. Salamence has a great move pool capable of many different effective sets
3. Salamence has a very useful ability
4. Salamence has nice type for taking attacks. Taking fighting, ground, grass, water, and fire attacks is great. Granted being weak to rock is a down side.

Separate these points do not make an uber. But Salamence has them all.

Another fact is that Salamence doesn't have a solid counter. Similar to how Garchomp didn't have a solid counter. Granted Garchomp's reason was raw power, and Salamences is it versatility and good stats. This cause a lot of pokemon to carry ice attacks for a revenge kill.

which brings Zetshimaru to a reason why Salamence shouldn't be uber. The main sets of Salamence are really weak to residual damage. Sandstorm is common with lots of T-tars running around, Stealth rocks is even more common. Combine this with the two most common items for Salamence (choice items and life orb) adds up to a lot of damage. Life orb does damage thanks to recoil and Choice causes damage by forcing Salamence to switch into the rocks again.

The actual vote is hard though. Zetshimaru doesn't want to say bump salamence up since Zetshimaru doesn't want to lose another pokemon but Zetshimaru does have the feeling that the meta game would change a lot with out him. Would this be a good change or not. Salamence can scare off other pokemon, with out salamence will some pokemon become to powerful? Scizor comes to mind for offensive. Zetshimaru is a little worried that the stall game could get to large, but other sweepers can should be able to shine more without the fear of salamence. For example Infernape doesn't have to worry about Mence coming into either stab moves.

Keep in mind everyone, the three characteristics of being considered Uber. If a Pokemon fits any of these three characteristics, then it is deemed "Uber Tier".


Offensive Characteristic


Defensive Characteristic


Support Characteristic



Personally, I don't see Salamence fitting any of these. And despite what anyone may say, there are only two real movesets for Salamence: DDMence and MixedMence, both of which have their own shared number of counters.

Not really, I question every decision they make (hence this whole debate of our own). I just feel that those are three great basis to consider when tangling a Pokemon between OU and Uber. Afterall, I don't see the need to ban Pokemon that don't deserve to be banned.

The vote is already pretty commanding at 1-5. It just seems that there isn't enough to make it an uber. I'll make it 1-6.

The problem with both counters listed by Kuarikitty is that it assumes that the pokemon were sent out on the same turn. No starts with a lead Mence. Both counters are going to get hit in the switch or the Salamence gets at least one DD. Frolass is going to die in the hit and focus sash most likely won't save it because SR will be there most of the time. And for Suicune either will either get hit on the switch and may die in a second blow or the Mence will switch out. And revenge killing should not be the only way to kill a pokemon.

Zetshimaru sees Salamence as an uber (not to the point where Zetshimaru will be upset by any outcome tough) but Zetshimaru hasn't voted because Zetshimaru is afraid of the damage it would cause to the other tiers if salamence is removed. Zetshimaru has followed Smogon's test a bit and fire, water, and grass cores have jumped a lot. So Zetshimaru is afraid that UU grass pokemon may jump to OU throwing of the balance of UU and that damage will cause damage to the NU. And if the tier do change how will that effect guild tournaments if salamence isn't banned?

If Kurai reads again Zetshimaru said either an attack or a DD for either counter (which more then likely will kill froslass since it doesn't float to dodge an earthquake, and salamence doesn't use normal or fighting type moves in Zetshimaru experience). which are the most common out comes. There could be a status Mence which Zetshimaru has never heard of or there could be a double switch (which are really rare for Zetshimaru). Yes this assumes Salamence is out first. Switching into what could be a counter for any pokemon is a move most trainers will not do.

This is Zetshimaru's problem no one is thinking of this as with in a normal battle most people are just thinking of it as one on one. One on one is totally different.

Edit: The ice shard pokemon on a switch is fine. Risky since it is unknown if the salamence will attack or DD though, which doesn't make the pokemon a solid counter to common salamences.

Slowbro would be a good Counter Zetshimaru didn't think about. So Zetshimaru will have to take back the the counter argument. Life orb mix mence could beat it but it will also wear itself out. If a couple more pokemon could be a great counter then Zetshimaru will have no problem voting for OU.