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 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:51 am
Introduction and apologeticsI know some of you may be thinking what does Christianity and witchcraft have in common? Isn't witchcraft/magic/divination all prohibited in Christianity? Well to address the first question. Witchcraft is just that, a craft. It is not a religion but a practice. Witchcraft within Christianity is useful because it can be used to build and strengthens one's relationship with God, since the source of a Christian witch's gift is the Holy Spirit, which according to my tradition, dwells in everyone and Christians specifically have access to it. It can also help us live the Law of Agape since we are vessels of our God and assist Christians in the highest goal of Christianity, being at union with God. -The next question isn't witchcraft a no-no within Christianity? Not at all. The prohibitions against witchcraft stem from two places. Christianity, specifically Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, has issues with superstition. Witchcraft is classified as a type of superstition or at worst viewed as trying to manipulate God's Will. I will leave the believer to decide if they think witchcraft is superstition but witchcraft within Christianity does not try to manipulate, tame, or change God's Will but rather works with it and enacts it though the practitioner. The next source of prohibition is piss-poor translation and misunderstanding of scripture. I will go through the classic verse(s) used to justify prohibiting witchcraft and show how it's the case described above. Sources for this come from Tea's Guide to Witchcraft in Christiandom, Search God's Word, Blue Letter Bible, and the Polyglot Bible on scared-texts.com Deuteronomy 18:10-12 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto The Lord: and because of these abominations The Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee." I will provide the original Hebrew as reference. Original Text 10 לֹֽא־יִמָּצֵ֣א בְךָ֔ מַעֲבִ֥יר בְּנֽוֹ־וּבִתּ֖וֹ בָּאֵ֑שׁ קֹסֵ֣ם קְסָמִ֔ים מְעוֹנֵ֥ן וּמְנַחֵ֖שׁ וּמְכַשֵּֽׁף׃
11 וְחֹבֵ֖ר חָ֑בֶר וְשֹׁאֵ֥ל אוֹב֙ וְיִדְּעֹנִ֔י וְדֹרֵ֖שׁ אֶל־הַמֵּתִֽים׃
12 כִּֽי־תוֹעֲבַ֥ת יְהוָ֖ה כָּל־עֹ֣שֵׂה אֵ֑לֶּה וּבִגְלַל֙ הַתּוֹעֵבֹ֣ת הָאֵ֔לֶּה יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ מוֹרִ֥ישׁ אוֹתָ֖ם מִפָּנֶֽיךָ׃ First the word used for divination is קֶסֶם which is used also in Proverbs 16:10 Quote: A divine sentence is in the lips of the king: his mouth transgresseth not in judgment. Original Hebrew 10 קֶ֤סֶם׀ עַֽל־שִׂפְתֵי־מֶ֑לֶךְ בְּ֝מִשְׁפָּ֗ט לֹ֣א יִמְעַל־פִּֽיו׃ Here we see קסם being used in a positive context. So is "divination" forbidden? No it's only forbidden when dealing with spirits that Judaism considers unclean. Since the Holy Spirit within the Christian witch is source of one's gifts, it is by default a clean spirit. Next phrase, "observer of times" which is ענן, meaning one who tries "to cover up" or "act covertly". Basically this is referring to false prophets or lying and passing it off as true. This is definitely a prohibition in Christianity. Next is an "enchanter" which comes from נחשׁ, meaning "to hiss" or "to whisper" which in context is concerning gossiping for one's benefit. Now on to "witch" which is translated from כּשׁף . The root literally means "to offer prayers or worship". In context this is offering prayers and worship to a God who isn't YHVH. Since there are no other Gods being worshiped or offered prayers to in this system, I confident you don't qualify as this. "Charmer" is translated from חבר which means "to unite". In context it is uniting through trickery or deceit. "A consulter with familiar spirits" is from two words שׁאל שׁאל (one who asks) and אוב (wine bottle) which is basically someone who is "drunkenly rambling". In context, it is concerning those who get inebriated improperly and tries to pass their ramblings off as a divine vision or message. I should note that this guide will avoid this issue by not addressing or researching "proper inebriation" other than meditation since I do not support or condone using entheogens. "Wizard" is ידּעני which is a false prophet or those who deal with unclean spirits. "Necromancer" is דָּרַשׁ which is a seeker in the contexts of "seeking guidance from unclean spirits". Next verse, Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Original Hebrew כָּל־שֹׁכֵ֥ב עִם־בְּהֵמָ֖ה מ֥וֹת יוּמָֽת׃ ס Again we see "witch" is translated from the word כָּשַׁף. So it's not witches but rather a condemnation against Hebrews who made a covenant with YHVH at Mt. Sinai and continued to worship other Gods. 1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. Original Hebrew כִּ֤י חַטַּאת־קֶ֙סֶם֙ מֶ֔רִי וְאָ֥וֶן וּתְרָפִ֖ים הַפְצַ֑ר יַ֗עַן מָאַ֙סְתָּ֙ אֶת־דְּבַ֣ר יְהוָ֔ה וַיִּמְאָסְךָ֖ מִמֶּֽלֶךְ׃ ס Here we have "witchcraft" translated from קֶסֶם, which is divinating from unclean spirits. Leviticus 19:26,31 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times . . . Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God. Original Hebrew לֹ֥א תֹאכְל֖וּ עַל־הַדָּ֑ם לֹ֥א תְנַחֲשׁ֖וּ וְלֹ֥א תְעוֹנֵֽנוּ׃
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אַל־תִּפְנ֤וּ אֶל־הָאֹבֹת֙ וְאֶל־הַיִּדְּעֹנִ֔ים אַל־תְּבַקְשׁ֖וּ לְטָמְאָ֣ה בָהֶ֑ם אֲנִ֖י יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶֽם׃ All the terms used here have already been addressed. Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Original Greek 19 φανερὰ δέ ἐστιν τὰ ἔργα τῆς σαρκός, ἅτινά ἐστιν πορνεία, ἀκαθαρσία, ἀσέλγεια, 20 εἰδωλολατρία, φαρμακεία, ἔχθραι, ἔρις, ζῆλος, θυμοί, ἐριθείαι, διχοστασίαι, αἱρέσεις, 21 φθόνοι, μέθαι, κῶμοι, καὶ τὰ ὅμοια τούτοις, ἃ προλέγω ὑμῖν καθὼς προεῖπον ὅτι οἱ τὰ τοιαῦτα πράσσοντες βασιλείαν θεοῦ οὐ κληρονομήσουσιν. There are two words I am going to address here. The first one is heresy which is translated from αἱρέω. This word literally means "to choose". The context here is concerned with choosing to believe something that is not true concerning God and the Christ. It's basically a label that early Christians threw at each other to condemn the beliefs of other sects. Some were rightly so, others were debatable. The next word related more with our topic is "witchcraft" translated from the word, φαρμακεία, literally meaning poisoner. This is someone who uses herbs/drugs to harm or kill, this action benefits the poisoner, and they are unrepentant for their actions. Revelations 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie Original Greek 14 μακάριοι οἱ πλύνοντες τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν, ἵνα ἔσται ἡ ἐξουσία αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον τῆς ζωῆς καὶ τοῖς πυλῶσιν εἰσέλθωσιν εἰς τὴν πόλιν. 15 ἔξω οἱ κύνες καὶ οἱ φάρμακοι καὶ οἱ πόρνοι καὶ οἱ φονεῖς καὶ οἱ εἰδωλολάτραι καὶ πᾶς φιλῶν καὶ ποιῶν ψεῦδος. We see "sorcerers" translated from φάρμακος, which is the adjective form of the word previously addressed. Revelations 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. Original Greek 21 καὶ οὐ μετενόησαν ἐκ τῶν φόνων αὐτῶν οὔτε ἐκ τῶν φαρμάκων αὐτῶν οὔτε ἐκ τῆς πορνείας αὐτῶν οὔτε ἐκ τῶν κλεμμάτων αὐτῶν. Again we see "sorceries" translated from φαρμακεία. Revelations 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. Original Greek 23 καὶ φῶς λύχνου οὐ μὴ φάνῃ ἐν σοὶ ἔτι, καὶ φωνὴ νυμφίου καὶ νύμφης οὐ μὴ ἀκουσθῇ ἐν σοὶ ἔτι· ὅτι οἱ ἔμποροί σου ἦσαν οἱ μεγιστᾶνες τῆς γῆς, ὅτι ἐν τῇ φαρμακείᾳ σου ἐπλανήθησαν πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, Again we see "sorceries" translated from φαρμακεία. I think I have now clearly demonstrated that witchcraft is not condemned in Christianity, without having to show how the Leviticus and Deuteronomy Laws don't even apply.
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Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:09 am
Leviticus and Deuteronomy do not apply if you are a Christian.That's right. If you are a Christian you don't need to be following the laws of Leviticus or Deuteronomy. It's pointless for a number of reasons. The first reason being that most Christians are Gentiles, not Jews. The Laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy were written specifically for the children of Israel (i.e. Jew). Evidence concerning this. Deuteronomy 1 1 These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan—that is, in the Arabah—opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. 2 (It takes eleven days to go from Horeb to Kadesh Barnea by the Mount Seir road.) 3 In the fortieth year, on the first day of the eleventh month, Moses proclaimed to the Israelites all that the LORD had commanded him concerning them. 4 This was after he had defeated Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon, and at Edrei had defeated Og king of Bashan, who reigned in Ashtaroth. Concerning Leviticus it's painfully clear that the people being addressed are the Israelites, not the Gentiles. Leviticus 1 1 The LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the Tent of Meeting. He said, 2 " Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When any of you brings an offering to the LORD, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock. Leviticus 4 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 " Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands- Leviticus 7 22 The LORD said to Moses, 23 " Say to the Israelites: 'Do not eat any of the fat of cattle, sheep or goats. . . . 28 The LORD said to Moses, 29 " Say to the Israelites: 'Anyone who brings a fellowship offering to the LORD is to bring part of it as his sacrifice to the LORD. Leviticus 11 1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 " Say to the Israelites: 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: Leviticus 12 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 " Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. Leviticus 15 1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 " Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When any man has a bodily discharge, the discharge is unclean. Leviticus 17 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: 'This is what the LORD has commanded: Leviticus 18 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 " Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. Leviticus 19 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 " Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy. Leviticus 20 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 " Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him. Leviticus 21 24 So Moses told this to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites. There's many many more but I think I got the point across. So what you may be asking are not Christians the "new" Israelites and are not Gentiles required to follow all those rules and regulations. No and we have Peter and Paul to thank for that. I must give credit to Nines19 for reminding me of this passage. Acts 15: 5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." 6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." The Laws of Deuteronomy and Leviticus are the yokes Christians are not required to bear. Colossians 2 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.So all you Christians that require other Christians and non-Christians to follow the Laws of Moses are essentially pissing on Christ's sacrifice to you. So why does specifically Leviticus not apply? Well Christ is the new High Priest for Christians according to Hebrews 7 but there's a verse in there that makes it painfully clear that the Laws for the Israelites do not apply to the Christians. Hebrews 7 18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. That's right the Law is weak and useless and this is not Paul's general ramblings here, since Paul was asked not to preach to the Hebrews if we remember our Bible history (Galatians 2:9). Finally it is detrimental to follow the Laws of Moses according to Paul. 2 Corinthians 3 12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. That's right following the Laws of Moses and requiring others to follow the Laws of Moses is a stumbling block for the salvation of yourself and others. But wait didn't Jesus say: Quote: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB) "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB) We have to take these in context. He was talking specifically to other Hebrews in these passages and we also have to consider what Law and Prophets he was talking about. The Law and Prophets he sums up in Matthew 7:12. He also goes on to say in Matthew 22:36-40 Matthew 22 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." So in closing, if you think following the Laws of Moses will strengthen your relationship with your God, more power to you, but to require other Christians to follow it or claim that someone is not Christian because they don't follow the Laws of Moses is not supported by Scripture.
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Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:16 am
Renkon Root This pickled vegetable...Thank you.
heart
But just so that I can have a nice info-dump to post in other places (like facebook) could you post the whole thing about the Tanakh not even applying to Christians? I would appreciate it ever so much.
BTW, fancy meeting you here. wink What's a nice male-avatar like you doing in a place like this? ... could kick your a** !! NP There ya go. Kind of a rush job. If you'd like to amend anything to it, let me know. Oh I saw one of my friends joined this guild and I followed her just to see what was going on here.
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Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:18 am
This pickled vegetable...Thank you much.
3nodding
And welcome to the guild! We need more educated and well read members here. ... could kick your a** !!
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Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:57 am
Oh. Yeah. I'm haven't joined yet XD. This guild is public so I can post without being a member. Though I might consider joining considering who's all is here.
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Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:00 am
This pickled vegetable...Wait, you can? You mean I didn't have to join in order to post here?
gonk
Ah, well. I'm here now. ... could kick your a** !!
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Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:32 am
Renkon Root This pickled vegetable...Wait, you can? You mean I didn't have to join in order to post here?
gonk
Ah, well. I'm here now. ... could kick your a** !! Share with me the links of where you post it on facebook. I'd like to see the responses.
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Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:33 pm
This pickled vegetable...Okay.
But that account on Facebook has actually just been banned. But the group where I was going to post it was this one. ... could kick your a** !!
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Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:08 pm
Renkon Root This pickled vegetable...Okay.
But that account on Facebook has actually just been banned. But the group where I was going to post it was this one. ... could kick your a** !! Cool just post me the post link when you make it live.
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Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:51 pm
This pickled vegetable...Actually, rmcdra, do I have your permission to repost this in another one of my guilds here on Gaia?
Its this one. ... could kick your a** !!
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Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:44 pm
Renkon Root This pickled vegetable...Actually, rmcdra, do I have your permission to repost this in another one of my guilds here on Gaia?
Its this one. ... could kick your a** !! Go for it. I like the "publicity" biggrin .
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Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:05 am
Renkon Root This pickled vegetable...Okay.
But that account on Facebook has actually just been banned. But the group where I was going to post it was this one. ... could kick your a** !! Ugh I just checked that site and it's new incarnation  The history of Wicca is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. Hell it doesn't even describe what Wicca even is. I'm actually sad now that I joined it's latest incarnation just to see what it was about. If anything, it looks like someone got pissy with the public version of the first group and made a private version.
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Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:55 pm
rmcdra Ugh I just checked that site and it's new incarnation The history of Wicca is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. Hell it doesn't even describe what Wicca even is. I'm actually sad now that I joined it's latest incarnation just to see what it was about. If anything, it looks like someone got pissy with the public version of the first group and made a private version. I got banned from it for "trolling".
To them, posting the actual history of Wicca, criticizing Ravenwolf, Cunningham and Buckland and posting links to back-up my statements was trolling. ... could kick your a** !!
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