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 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:44 am
Do your god/s have genders? If so - or even if not! - do you relate in any way to concepts of "divine feminine/masculine",
What importance do concepts of "feminine" and "masculine" have to your religious practice?
Do you stress one over the other? Do you relate to one more than the other? A slightly different question: do you relate to one gender of deity better than the other on average?
Overall.... what do the terms "divine feminine" and "divine masculine" mean to you? Are they vague concepts? more archetypal? do they relate to all deities in your practice, or only a couple? Are their gods that you feel are embodiments of these concepts? Are the concepts "names" of deities?
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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:32 pm
Technically no, my God does not have a Gender though traditionally my God is referred to as a He and called the Father. Other names associated with my God are the Monad and the Holy Father-Mother to just name a few. My God is understood in 15 pairs of synergistic male-female dualities each being an emanation of my God. Each pair is a digressive reflection of the pair that came before it. By understanding these dualities and how they function together is key to achieving different and progressive levels of gnosis concerning my God and also one's self. Personally one of the male-female dualities I understand is the interaction of Intuition and Reason. Reason without Intuition can never create anything new and Intuition without Reason will create whatever she wants indiscriminately (This can be good or bad but highly unpredictable). Quote: Do you stress one over the other? Ideally I don't want to but I'm prone to do so. Quote: Do you relate to one more than the other? I really don't get what you mean by this question but I identify as a man. Quote: A slightly different question: do you relate to one gender of deity better than the other on average? Sometimes I identify with male over the female, or female over male, though ideally I should be able to identify with both. To me Divine genders come to me as very archetypal more than anything and it might be my ignorance concerning this but it seems kinda "buzz word-ish" and theosophic. Most Gods I've seen have fixed genders but those genders are unique to the cultures the hail from. It would seem to understand Divine Genders, one would have to examine a culture and understand how that culture understands gender before an archetype could be begun to be understood and established. I kinda think I answered these questions already but if I need to clarify anything let me know.
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Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:29 am
Yeah, "divine feminine" is definitely becoming a bit of a buzzword in Paganism. That's why I threw in "divine masculine" as well, and actually sort of why I brought up the topic. One of the "meditations" in my new book o' thoughts is on the "divine feminine".
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:21 pm
I always have to shake my head at the neo-pagan tendancy to focus on the "Divine Feminine" and Goddess worship so heavily that the masculine aspect sort of gets left out. At least in the form of books and similar media, if not in actual practice. I understand that it's partly a reaction against a patriarcal society and the likewise patriarchal religions that dominated it for so long but come on. Don't you think things have gone a bit far in the opposite direction?
As to your actual questions. I can't say I've ever thought about it. As you are well aware Sang, my Gods most certainly have genders (though some of them might break the rules now and then) but I've always dealt with them as full and complex individuals rather than on the basis of masculine and feminine. It's just something that ever made sense to me. They are identifiable as male or female, but what, exactly is masculine or feminine? Aside from certain biological traits, I'm not sure anything can be said to be the sole domain of one gender or the other.
I've never really understood the tendancy to define particular traits or qualities as masculine or feminine. What makes something one or the other? For example, the Intuition-Reason duality that rmcdra brough up. What about intuition is more feminine than reason? Why is reason designated as male? In my experience, both men and women are equally capable of experiencing and acting on both traits.
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:47 pm
I guess I sort of focus a bit more on the Divine Feminine side, but I do acknowledge the Divine Masculine. I know he's there, and I know he knows I'm here, and we kinda go 'Oh, hey there.' but nothing more really. He doesn't ask anything of me, and I don't really ask anything of him. It's nothing like the connection or conduit between myself and the Divine Feminine. I suppose when it's time for us to talk to eachother, it'll happen. Part of that probably has to do with my being ready to speak to him, and the other part with him knowing that it's time for him to step into my life.
Another good way to sum it up is this. Have you ever been talking to two people; one person you know extremely well, and the other you've only heard of really? It's sort of like that. Divine Feminine, Divine Masculine, and I are having a conversation. While the Divine Feminine and I do most of the chatter, Divine Masculine does more listening, though every now and then he'll nod, shake his head, smile pleasantly, or offer his two cents.
I do have to agree with Raven on the part of too much Divine Feminine, and for the wrong reasons. What's the point of denying the Masculine to protest denial of the Feminine? I saw that a lot when reading about Dianic Witchcraft. The Divine Feminine can rejuvenate itself, but only to a certain point. At sometime She needs the Divine Masculine, and that doesn't make Her weak at all. The Divine Masculine needs Her too, and that's the beauty of it. They don't give in to Eachother, like some surrender or display of weakness. One offers balance to the other.
I also sort of agree with Raven on the idea of what really defines a certain attribute as masculine or feminine. But I guess the only explanation I can offer for some traits being given a specific definition as masculine or feminine is that over time, although I think it's sort of a shame, certain traits have just manifested more so in either gender. Like with her example of intuition and reason. I know plently of men who are extremely capable of the same amount of intuition one might characterize a woman with, but they're going to be less likely to use it for whatever reason. I don't feel it's a question of how much they have, I think it's more of a question of how much they use the thing. If it isn't used, it's not seen, therefore things like intuition get pinned to women.
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:54 pm
Except, I know quite a few men who are incredibly intuitive and likely to act on those intuitions. I also know a number of women who wouldn't. It's a cultural construct. We are taught that this is masculine and this is feminine and so we look for it to be so. When we do that, we find what we were expecting to find. Or we are taught that men do this and women do that so we act as we have been taught is appropriate for our gender because that's what we're supposed to do, even if it's not our natural inclination.
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Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:29 pm
CalledTheRaven Except, I know quite a few men who are incredibly intuitive and likely to act on those intuitions. I also know a number of women who wouldn't. It's a cultural construct. We are taught that this is masculine and this is feminine and so we look for it to be so. When we do that, we find what we were expecting to find. Or we are taught that men do this and women do that so we act as we have been taught is appropriate for our gender because that's what we're supposed to do, even if it's not our natural inclination. Exactly.
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:55 am
Of course there are exceptions. Perhaps it's more cultural influence than anything else, but there are certainly studies wherein particular characteristics are more common in women than men and vice versa.
Men are more spatial, women are more verbal. Men are better at mathematics, women at languages. Men are better at reading maps, women at multi-tasking. Men have better vision when it comes to things that are far off, women have wider peripheral vision. Men are sexually more visual while women tend to prefer their porn in written form.
Of course this doesn't mean that women can't rock at maths or that men can't be brilliant poets. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about breaking out of those gender roles. Nevertheless, y'know, studies and so forth.
At any rate, my point in asking was more to get an idea of what these terms mean for different people, if anything. I mean, Corabella, you're identifying these terms with individuals, are you?
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:39 pm
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:58 pm
I have to say, I began to answer this, but then I realized I am extremely unsure as to what the concepts of divine Feminine and divine Masculine really are. Could someone explain this to me? xd
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:02 pm
Sorry for highjacking things. I was trying to answer your question and got sidetracked. Basically, what I started to say was that I find no real meaning in those terms/ideas so I don't use them.
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:45 am
Oh no, Raven, that's cool ^_^ It adds to the conversation! I think it's particularly true that the terms aren't relevant to Heathenry. There are female roles and male roles and what's appropriate and what isn't, but even the gods ******** around with those and turn them on their heads when it pleases them. "Divine feminine" and "Divine masculine" aren't concepts I consider relevant to my practice of Heathenry at any rate.
Gen: they're pretty ill-defined and seem to centre around some sort of soft-polytheistic worldview. They are usually either archetypal, or influenced by archetypal ideas, and in my personal reading experience people seem to have a tendency to come up with these concepts first and superimpose deities over the top of them. Like they have a "Divine Feminine" concept, a goddess who is fertile and pregnant and yet tends to be virginal as well, and then they'll assume any Great Goddess is just like that, which may or may not be the case in reality.
I, for example, tend to look at the terms in a slightly irritated way simply because of the vague way in which they're so often used. On the other hand, I do worship a Great Goddess and a Great God, and the terms "Divine Feminine" and "Divine Masculine" I can see as possible labels for the deities and things related to them. But I tend to come at it from the opposite direction; if it is related to Her, it is part of the Divine Feminine, and it may be quite different to something typically considered "Divine Feminine".
They're not terms I use often, just something I think about once in a while, which was one reason for the thread ^_^ The terms are vague, so why not discuss them and see how different people interpret them? thus went my reasoning.
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:38 am
Quote: I, for example, tend to look at the terms in a slightly irritated way simply because of the vague way in which they're so often used. On the other hand, I do worship a Great Goddess and a Great God, and the terms "Divine Feminine" and "Divine Masculine" I can see as possible labels for the deities and things related to them. But I tend to come at it from the opposite direction; if it is related to Her, it is part of the Divine Feminine, and it may be quite different to something typically considered "Divine Feminine". I kinda come at it the same was as you do Sanguina. It's not that the one I view as Divine Feminine is all those archetypes at the same time, it's more like 'Ok, she's the main one, so she's gonna be hte Divine Feminine' and same goes for the Masculine. I know he tags along with her, and is apparently her consort or something along those lines, so he's the main masculine figure, so I suppose he's the Divine Masculine. And you know what? Now that I come to think of it, I've never really asked her or tries to find out what her characteristics even are! I'm finding more and more I need to think more on things sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:56 am
That's good though Corabella! Frankly, I'd be worried if you though you new everything you needed to and had nothing to learn about or from your path/deities.
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:03 am
Corabella And you know what? Now that I come to think of it, I've never really asked her or tries to find out what her characteristics even are! I'm finding more and more I need to think more on things sweatdrop I worshipped my Nameless Ones for nine years before I had a major epiphany regarding Them and Their nature. And They still remain elusive! biggrin It's part of the journey in some paths.
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