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 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:12 am
Recently, Savage Destiny gave me the idea to completely revamp the old Docking and Cropping thread in order to have an original post that A: knows what it's talking about and B: gets updated. I will be going through the entirety of the posts (all 128 pages of them) in the docking and cropping thread for well-written arguments for both sides, both of which will be posted in the OP. Well-written includes arguments that are posted by people that have an idea of what they are talking about and do not, for example, refer to their own breed as a Miniature Dobermann Pinscher. (This will also be posted as a warning to refrain from on the OP.) Well-written arguments also follow good arguments. I will PM some of the good posters and ask for permission to quote them as well. Since this thread is, in a way, the mother of this guild (razorgod and I came up with the idea to create it in the thread), I will be sorry to see it go, but I feel it is necessary to have a docking and cropping thread that attempts to educate people on the realities of docking and cropping rather than a poorly-researched post that is never updated and in which the OP considers it her sovereign right to post whatever garbage she likes in the topic, whether or not it is related to the topic at hand. I will also PM a mod for permission to create the new thread before posting it because the original thread does exist and I would not like the new thread to be sent to the Recycle Bin. If anyone wishes to help me with the new thread, please post here and say so! It would be helpful to me to have collaborations on it.
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:19 am
I'd be glad to help you out. :3 It's my day off, I've got plenty of time to crawl through threads. What sort of arguments are you looking for? Just ones that make sense? xD I'd also be willing to Google it up and try and find some good links.
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:51 am
Anything that makes sense, yes, especially anything backed up by links or books or other sources. I need to check out whatever I can find from the library, too.
I'm definitely planning to appropriate one of [Ernie]'s posts.
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Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:20 pm
This is a great idea. Although, I doubt it will matter. The uneducated will always come and will always flame and make uneducated arguements based on myth rather than fact.
Personally my view...docking:Good
Ear cropping: Bad.
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:16 am
Which is the view of nearly all educated people who posted on the first thread, really, to varying degrees of ambivelency on the cropping.
I'll be posting with a more docking-centric thread and as it progresses will mention that I personally am not fond of cropping.
lol I don't really want to do so in the OP; it's 4 pages long in Microsoft Word already and I'm not done with it yet.
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:33 pm
I have written my letter to the mod that I will send when I am ready to post the thread and will post it here. I also plan to post my new OP here before I send the PM so I can get commentary on it and hopefully improve it. Dear [mod's name], There is a thread in the ED called 'Dobermans tails cut off,' originally created by one Thalion_Runya, that deals with the cropping of dog's ears and the docking of dog's tails. I have been quite active on this thread and have invested a lot of time with it. However, I have gotten very fed up with the people that post on it, who are generally ill-informed as to the actual realities of the topic. The original post especially bothers me, as does the original poster's subsequent comments in the thread that often deviate wildly from the stated topic, even going so far as to one point post her angsty poetry for no apparant reason on the thread. Her original post is also biased severely and appears to have been done with little to no research, and appeals to emotional reasoning as opposed to logic. It does not address the realities inherent to docking or cropping and does not provide citations or conclusive evidence for her opinions. I have grown sick and tired of the original poster mouthing off without doing any research, randomly creating posts about her personal life, and refusing to either concede that she is wrong in some points or update her first post. Ever. Should you ask for specific instances of her blantant disregard for the topic, I would be more than happy to drag up some specific quotes, including this lovely piece of work: Thalion_Runya Sola Catella Thalion_Runya puma28 Thalion_Runya not whinning... i dont whine... i just give bull s**t answers that dont mean anything because i have nothing else to say Then find something else to say that actually contributes. why? *grits teeth* Because those of us who are interested in the discussion are trying to have one and your endless crappy, worthless, irrelevant junk is filling up the board. *laughs* and your point? Her most recent post in the board is thus: Thalion_Runya Sola Catella [Ernie] The person who necroed this thread will be one of many to meet Ernie's Singing of Wrath. mad Thalion_Runya: That doesn't compare. 'Bursting into flames' is something more painful and scarring than getting your ears pierced, which is equivalent to the pain felt by a puppy getting his/her tail docked. Yes, especially since I'd been working on a new version of the thread so I can get this one killed forevermore for three days already when they brought it back. stressed It's already 6 pages long in Word. I'll be PMing a mod in order to ask permission to make it, and I shall be citing the reason that the OP has no interest in the topic. That means I'll be quoting all your s**t, Thalion. So you're quotoing all of my s**t because... o and Ernie, what is Singing of Wrath... that sounds extreamly amatureish... but whatever, do as you all wish, as I've said many times before, and as I will say once again, I really don't care and only comment here to watch everyone get mad over my own stupidity... In addition to this blatant disregard of the etiquette and rules of the ED, Thalion has often changed her point of view for no apparant reason in the middle of a conversation, sometimes arguing for docking and sometimes against it. It is maddening to deal with such a person. With the issues surrounding docking and cropping in the world of dogs heating up more and more lately, I along with several others feel the need for a thread aimed at educating the general Gaian population of the ED as well as a thread for discussion of the topic. As it is, the thread created by Thalion is not serving this purpose. As someone who has studied dogs with a passion for over ten years, has founded the only guild to discuss dogs on Gaia, and backed up by two professional groomers and two current or former kennel workers here on Gaia as well as several other members of my guild who both agree and disagree with docking and cropping but are unified on our wishes to stop Thalion_Runya's annoying bitching and to have an original post that actually is updated and educational, I ask you for permission to post a Docking and Cropping thread without having it removed to the Recycle Bin as a repeat thread. Should you request it, I will send you a copy of the thread to be posted before posting it so that you can check whether it meets ED standards. I humbly wait for your response. Sincerely,
Sola Catella
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:35 pm
My only thing is that you might want to include the fact that Thalion often changes her point of view, sometimes saying she agrees that docking doesn't hurt the dogs, other times saying that docking is obviously extremely painful. Also, you might want to mention that you want to recreate the thread in order to educate people and generate actual discussion, not just because Thalion is an idiot.
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:44 pm
Savage Destiny My only thing is that you might want to include the fact that Thalion often changes her point of view, sometimes saying she agrees that docking doesn't hurt the dogs, other times saying that docking is obviously extremely painful. Also, you might want to mention that you want to recreate the thread in order to educate people and generate actual discussion, not just because Thalion is an idiot. Good points. I will edit it and add them. Guys, since I am going to add the original reasons for docking and cropping on my lists of breeds with those traditions, I am having problems with some of them. To those of you who are affiliated with those breeds or simply know more about them than I do, can you please tell me the origins of docking and cropping in these breeds (I will be doing research on my own, but the faster I can finish this thread the better I'll feel): Irish Terrier
Kerry Blue Terrier
Lakeland Terrier
Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier (on these four, the long dockings have me stumped)Affenpinscher
Brussels GriffonMiniature PoodleToy Poodle (aside from 'they're miniatures of Standard Poodles and they wouldn't be true miniatures without the dock, if possible, please. EDIT: am still holding out for this; will post the mini-mi idea if that's the last possible option as I've come up with a semi-functional reason on nearly everything else) Australian Shepherd
Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Swedish VallhundPolish Lowland Sheepdog Miniature Schnauzer
Standard Schnauzer
Minature Pinscher
German PinscherToy Fox Terrier Bouvier des Flandres
Black Russian Terrier
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:15 am
The poodle was a water retriever/gun dog. It's coat was shaved in places and left in others, to maximize it's ability to move in the water...but most duck bearing bodies of water, were surrounded by brush...most likely the tail docking made navigating the brush easier, without a long tail to worry about getting hung up. The idea in the poodles styling was to get the dog to duck and back to the handler as quickly and efficiently as possible.
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:03 pm
razorgod The poodle was a water retriever/gun dog. It's coat was shaved in places and left in others, to maximize it's ability to move in the water...but most duck bearing bodies of water, were surrounded by brush...most likely the tail docking made navigating the brush easier, without a long tail to worry about getting hung up. The idea in the poodles styling was to get the dog to duck and back to the handler as quickly and efficiently as possible. Yeah, I got that from Savage. What I need to know is if the docking of Minis and Toys serves any purpose. Does it help with hygeine issues, or is it strictly because that's what you need to show the dogs?
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:08 pm
Sola Catella razorgod The poodle was a water retriever/gun dog. It's coat was shaved in places and left in others, to maximize it's ability to move in the water...but most duck bearing bodies of water, were surrounded by brush...most likely the tail docking made navigating the brush easier, without a long tail to worry about getting hung up. The idea in the poodles styling was to get the dog to duck and back to the handler as quickly and efficiently as possible. Yeah, I got that from Savage. What I need to know is if the docking of Minis and Toys serves any purpose. Does it help with hygeine issues, or is it strictly because that's what you need to show the dogs? Honestly, I think it's just because they're miniaturized versions- They "need" to look just like their larger counterparts. Don't despair- I'm searching right now for reasons why some of those breeds you mentioned are docked. :3
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:49 pm
Savage Destiny Sola Catella razorgod The poodle was a water retriever/gun dog. It's coat was shaved in places and left in others, to maximize it's ability to move in the water...but most duck bearing bodies of water, were surrounded by brush...most likely the tail docking made navigating the brush easier, without a long tail to worry about getting hung up. The idea in the poodles styling was to get the dog to duck and back to the handler as quickly and efficiently as possible. Yeah, I got that from Savage. What I need to know is if the docking of Minis and Toys serves any purpose. Does it help with hygeine issues, or is it strictly because that's what you need to show the dogs? Honestly, I think it's just because they're miniaturized versions- They "need" to look just like their larger counterparts. Don't despair- I'm searching right now for reasons why some of those breeds you mentioned are docked. :3 To be honest, so do I, but I need to make sure before I do because I'm not entirely familiar with some of these breeds. I did find a reason for both Min Pins AND Mini Schnauzers, which is that both were ratters and ears were cropped and tails were docked to prevent injuries from rat bites (which get infected very easily).
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:17 pm
Sola Catella Yeah, I got that from Savage. What I need to know is if the docking of Minis and Toys serves any purpose. Does it help with hygeine issues, or is it strictly because that's what you need to show the dogs? Honestly, I think it's just because they're miniaturized versions- They "need" to look just like their larger counterparts. Toys, if memory serves are actually more designer, but miniatures were also used to retrieve as well...for smaller game- like doves. So the docking would serve the same purpose.
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:50 pm
razorgod Savage Destiny Sola Catella Yeah, I got that from Savage. What I need to know is if the docking of Minis and Toys serves any purpose. Does it help with hygeine issues, or is it strictly because that's what you need to show the dogs? Honestly, I think it's just because they're miniaturized versions- They "need" to look just like their larger counterparts. Toys, if memory serves are actually more designer, but miniatures were also used to retrieve as well...for smaller game- like doves. So the docking would serve the same purpose. That was helpful; most of what I find lumps them all together if it mentions breed history at all. Sigh. I think it's done aside from the breed list; do you want me to post it here to investigate the arguments and such?
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:46 pm
Okay, I found some info on a few of the breeds:
Irish, Kerry Blue, Lakeland and Soft Coated Wheaten Terriers all seemed to have the same reason for docking: To keep the tail from whacking around too much in the brush while hunting rats. I'm assuming the breeders wanted long-ish tails for looks, and only docked enough to keep the tails from being a nuisance.
Australian Shepherds were docked to keep the tail out of the way- They were working and herding dogs, and so people wanted shorter tails.
Pembroke Welsh Corgis had docked tails so that they wouldn't get caught in cattle gates, slaughter equipment or barbed wire. I'm assuming they were also docked to keep cattle from stepping on the tail.
Bouvier des Flandres: since they were used as carting dogs, the tails were docked to keep it from getting caught in the riggings.
And Razorgod beat me to the Poodles. :3
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