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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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 Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:02 am
so, there was this kid in a religious discussion guild i am in, who had this wierd theory about the fallacies of humans and god. and my responce got me thinking, so i thought i'd share it with you guys and open it for further discussion.
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i don't see how a Creator God can't exist, or at the very least existed once. i wouldn't know so much about being omniprescent, omniscient and omnipotent, but i can't realy argue that it might be possible too. however, even if it is, it is probably either dedicated to not interfering with our lives, or else seriously doesn't care what the hell happens to us. i don't believe that whatever this being is is truely benevolent and kind and loving like so many religions claim it is. i would think that if it truely exists, it would have to be everything and nothing at once. beyond defnition or description, because to define it would be to break it down and compare it, and it can't be compared to anything.
or, perhaps this eing was once everything and nothing, but had shattered and fragmented, becoming so many different things both dark and light, and both kind and cruel, and both soft and hard, and both hot and cold, and so on. basically being a source beyond all definition, but exploading cataclysmically into everything, no longer existing anymore as a single omniprescent being, but rather everything was once part of it.
just a couple theories. now share your own thoughts, and discuss.
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:21 am
"Umm, i is a Buddhist, i believe that every thing as is it was meant to be. Good and bad are here so you notice the good. You live, die and are reborn to try again at enlightenment. Enlightenment is the perfect state of mind and frees one from pain and suffering".
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ScarletFrost Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:29 am
An interesting thing about the Jewdeo-Christian religions is that in Gen 1:2. that little word "was" (as in, "Now the earthwas void and without form") can also mean "became." So right from the beginning, there is a hint of something BEFORE.
I think a lot of people assume that the bible is completely self contained, but it CAN'T be. Or it would be so big that there would be no way to hold everything in one book or even one bookshelf. A lot of things were assumed, like cultural contexts or domestic functions--especially agricultural things.
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:34 am
Ura the rainbow King "Umm, i is a Buddhist, i believe that every thing as is it was meant to be. Good and bad are here so you notice the good. You live, die and are reborn to try again at enlightenment. Enlightenment is the perfect state of mind and frees one from pain and suffering". But how did everything begin? (I'm really curious about the Buddhist creation story. I've heard so many, and I really enjoy them. ^_^)
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ScarletFrost Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:44 am
Something interesting is how beliefs differ. A lot of pantheistic traditions will say that there is a God/Goddess in different elements of their environment. There could be a Goddess of a river, a God of a mountain. People tend to attribute value to the things that are significant to their lives. It was something they actually interacted with on some level.
Monotheistic traditions are actually rooted in agricultural societies, and pastoral societies to a lesser extent (populations are smaller).
It seemed with the surplus of grain (and thus larger populations) the stratification tended to be of value one person/thing at the top of a social order below it (the basis of a hierarchy). I'm quite sure that's the reason for the singularity of a, "divine," being.
What the idea of a one God ("God," because all hierarchies are patriarchal) is really portable, because it doesn't really that have much to do with the region in which it originated.
This also made it easy for these religions to be very widespread.
I can't really see how any divine being was necessary. There's just been nothing I've seen that's indicated this to me.
I am spiritual, and I think there's something holy about this planet, and really, I think everyone does, regardless of religion. To be spiritual is in our nature.
I just don't see the necessity of any creator being. Occam's razor.
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:49 am
"In the Buddhist belief, we think that the world simply always was and always will be, there was no beginning and there will be no end. It is like the 'Yen' and 'yang'. It is a circle, never starting and never ending. We die, we are reborn, we die, we are reborn. It is that simple. the only way out is to become enlightened, then you are released from the cycle of life and death and you no longer have to be born again and go thorough the pain".
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:47 pm
ScarletFrost An interesting thing about the Jewdeo-Christian religions is that in Gen 1:2. that little word "was" (as in, "Now the earth was void and without form") can also mean "became." So right from the beginning, there is a hint of something BEFORE. I think a lot of people assume that the bible is completely self contained, but it CAN'T be. Or it would be so big that there would be no way to hold everything in one book or even one bookshelf. A lot of things were assumed, like cultural contexts or domestic functions--especially agricultural things. see, i have a Christian friend who point out that very thing about the translation of that word in Genesis. smile he made a bunch of cross-references to other lines, particularly in Proverbs and Revelations, and they were pretty convincing. he believes that the earth became Void and Empty when god sent Satan to earth. whatever the case, be it a real cosmic struggle between higher forces, or just a metaphor for celestial events occuring in space, the evidence shows that there is definately alot more that happened long before human understanding. Figuren Something interesting is how beliefs differ. A lot of pantheistic traditions will say that there is a God/Goddess in different elements of their environment. There could be a Goddess of a river, a God of a mountain. People tend to attribute value to the things that are significant to their lives. It was something they actually interacted with on some level.
Monotheistic traditions are actually rooted in agricultural societies, and pastoral societies to a lesser extent (populations are smaller).
It seemed with the surplus of grain (and thus larger populations) the stratification tended to be of value one person/thing at the top of a social order below it (the basis of a hierarchy). I'm quite sure that's the reason for the singularity of a, "divine," being.
What the idea of a one God ("God," because all hierarchies are patriarchal) is really portable, because it doesn't really that have much to do with the region in which it originated.
This also made it easy for these religions to be very widespread.
I can't really see how any divine being was necessary. There's just been nothing I've seen that's indicated this to me.
I am spiritual, and I think there's something holy about this planet, and really, I think everyone does, regardless of religion. To be spiritual is in our nature.
I just don't see the necessity of any creator being. Occam's razor. this is all very true. i myself, do believe that there are gods, but their omnipotence doesn't quite strike me as a nessesary thing. i don't believe that it is so important to worship other than to show love and loyalty to beings whom you trust in to help you out and guide you when you need it. as far as power in this world goes, we have all we need. but as for monotheism, it is an institution based entirely on heirarchy, and is no longer important. it doesn't even matter whether any being created it all, that being still has no purpose dealing with this planet or the lives or fates of anything on it. still though, i feel that there had to be something higher that created it all.... i believe in the Big Bang, but it doesn't make sense on it's own. and the very fact that it happened (and has conclusive evidence) is a very godly thing itself! i am honestly baffled.
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:58 pm
Ura the rainbow King "In the Buddhist belief, we think that the world simply always was and always will be, there was no beginning and there will be no end. It is like the 'Yen' and 'yang'. It is a circle, never starting and never ending. We die, we are reborn, we die, we are reborn. It is that simple. the only way out is to become enlightened, then you are released from the cycle of life and death and you no longer have to be born again and go thorough the pain". now see, the concept of infinite has always upset me. i cannot grasp it for the life of me. it is completely beyond my understanding. though, i have heard an interesting theory, in an unlikely unrelated topic. it had to do with comparing AI to humanity, and biological beings to machines. AI is personality and learning ability built from a digital medium and stored as data. no matter how much like a human an AI can become, it can never have a soul of it's own. and humans and other living things are born with their soul. even if they could convert their mind into data and store it in a completely artificial body, they would still have a soul, and that soul could never be damaged. no matter how much they try to be like eachother, AI will never have a soul and livings will never lose their soul (until they die). also, the concept of god is represented as something that must exist beyond the realm of existence, a sort of paradox. it is similar to the concept of the number zero in mathematics. 0 is a number that is apart from the other number, because it represents the concept of absense of being, yet it exists. in digitial it is zero, and in analog it is god. what if then, this concept of infinite is god, something that never began and will never end? or what if god is the concept of zero, and there realy is no infinite? which makes more sense? i'm willing to bet it's 0. because infinite just doesn't sit well with me. if god s zero, then the source of all things is absense, everything springing from nothing, which is what the Big Bang seems to be. all it is now is determining whether it is zero or infinite which scientifically fits in the discovery of what hapened before the Big Bang (if we ever get that far), and we will then scientifically know the truth about "god" as in the Creator.
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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ScarletFrost Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:58 pm
Ura the rainbow King "In the Buddhist belief, we think that the world simply always was and always will be, there was no beginning and there will be no end. It is like the 'Yen' and 'yang'. It is a circle, never starting and never ending. We die, we are reborn, we die, we are reborn. It is that simple. the only way out is to become enlightened, then you are released from the cycle of life and death and you no longer have to be born again and go thorough the pain". But the laws of entropy directly contradict that. Not trying to be controversial or anything, but basic physics have condemned the universe from the beginning of time. Without some force to counter act universe-wide heat death, the best we can hope for is a thin mush of base elements floating around at the end of time. Hypothetically, that mush could be drawn into the center of the universe again for another big bang, but that's really just speculation. And I know there are lots of laws of physics broken in the 7-day Jewdeo-Christian creation story, not to mention the rest of the bible. And I'm not saying that all physic's laws are completely developed and true throughout the universe. I'm just saying from an academic standpoint, the cycles of nature and the universe will only last so long until they collapse upon themselves.
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:45 pm
ScarletFrost Ura the rainbow King "In the Buddhist belief, we think that the world simply always was and always will be, there was no beginning and there will be no end. It is like the 'Yen' and 'yang'. It is a circle, never starting and never ending. We die, we are reborn, we die, we are reborn. It is that simple. the only way out is to become enlightened, then you are released from the cycle of life and death and you no longer have to be born again and go thorough the pain". But the laws of entropy directly contradict that. Not trying to be controversial or anything, but basic physics have condemned the universe from the beginning of time. Without some force to counter act universe-wide heat death, the best we can hope for is a thin mush of base elements floating around at the end of time. Hypothetically, that mush could be drawn into the center of the universe again for another big bang, but that's really just speculation. And I know there are lots of laws of physics broken in the 7-day Jewdeo-Christian creation story, not to mention the rest of the bible. And I'm not saying that all physic's laws are completely developed and true throughout the universe. I'm just saying from an academic standpoint, the cycles of nature and the universe will only last so long until they collapse upon themselves. "it's not like that...I mean that there is no point to us, the earth was made and always had the potential to be made, and always would be made. It may be destroyed, but it was meant to happen, that's why it did".
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:57 pm
Ura the rainbow King ScarletFrost Ura the rainbow King "In the Buddhist belief, we think that the world simply always was and always will be, there was no beginning and there will be no end. It is like the 'Yen' and 'yang'. It is a circle, never starting and never ending. We die, we are reborn, we die, we are reborn. It is that simple. the only way out is to become enlightened, then you are released from the cycle of life and death and you no longer have to be born again and go thorough the pain". But the laws of entropy directly contradict that. Not trying to be controversial or anything, but basic physics have condemned the universe from the beginning of time. Without some force to counter act universe-wide heat death, the best we can hope for is a thin mush of base elements floating around at the end of time. Hypothetically, that mush could be drawn into the center of the universe again for another big bang, but that's really just speculation. And I know there are lots of laws of physics broken in the 7-day Jewdeo-Christian creation story, not to mention the rest of the bible. And I'm not saying that all physic's laws are completely developed and true throughout the universe. I'm just saying from an academic standpoint, the cycles of nature and the universe will only last so long until they collapse upon themselves. "it's not like that...I mean that there is no point to us, the earth was made and always had the potential to be made, and always would be made. It may be destroyed, but it was meant to happen, that's why it did". if it was meant to happen though, doesn't that contradict not having a point? confused besides, i'm still damnably curious as to how it was created.
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:09 pm
Ura the rainbow King ScarletFrost Ura the rainbow King "In the Buddhist belief, we think that the world simply always was and always will be, there was no beginning and there will be no end. It is like the 'Yen' and 'yang'. It is a circle, never starting and never ending. We die, we are reborn, we die, we are reborn. It is that simple. the only way out is to become enlightened, then you are released from the cycle of life and death and you no longer have to be born again and go thorough the pain". But the laws of entropy directly contradict that. Not trying to be controversial or anything, but basic physics have condemned the universe from the beginning of time. Without some force to counter act universe-wide heat death, the best we can hope for is a thin mush of base elements floating around at the end of time. Hypothetically, that mush could be drawn into the center of the universe again for another big bang, but that's really just speculation. And I know there are lots of laws of physics broken in the 7-day Jewdeo-Christian creation story, not to mention the rest of the bible. And I'm not saying that all physic's laws are completely developed and true throughout the universe. I'm just saying from an academic standpoint, the cycles of nature and the universe will only last so long until they collapse upon themselves. "it's not like that...I mean that there is no point to us, the earth was made and always had the potential to be made, and always would be made. It may be destroyed, but it was meant to happen, that's why it did". So things are the way they are because that's just how they are. No higher purposes or greater causes. I can certainly see the appeal of not having a divine morality to struggle to satisfy, but I guess I'm too much of a fighter to accept it for myself. Still, some of the most peaceful minds in the world have embraced this philosophy, and I know that you are a very non-confrontational sort of person. (Not sure what that says about me. razz )
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ScarletFrost Vice Captain
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:13 pm
ScarletFrost Ura the rainbow King ScarletFrost Ura the rainbow King "In the Buddhist belief, we think that the world simply always was and always will be, there was no beginning and there will be no end. It is like the 'Yen' and 'yang'. It is a circle, never starting and never ending. We die, we are reborn, we die, we are reborn. It is that simple. the only way out is to become enlightened, then you are released from the cycle of life and death and you no longer have to be born again and go thorough the pain". But the laws of entropy directly contradict that. Not trying to be controversial or anything, but basic physics have condemned the universe from the beginning of time. Without some force to counter act universe-wide heat death, the best we can hope for is a thin mush of base elements floating around at the end of time. Hypothetically, that mush could be drawn into the center of the universe again for another big bang, but that's really just speculation. And I know there are lots of laws of physics broken in the 7-day Jewdeo-Christian creation story, not to mention the rest of the bible. And I'm not saying that all physic's laws are completely developed and true throughout the universe. I'm just saying from an academic standpoint, the cycles of nature and the universe will only last so long until they collapse upon themselves. "it's not like that...I mean that there is no point to us, the earth was made and always had the potential to be made, and always would be made. It may be destroyed, but it was meant to happen, that's why it did". So things are the way they are because that's just how they are. No higher purposes or greater causes. I can certainly see the appeal of not having a divine morality to struggle to satisfy, but I guess I'm too much of a fighter to accept it for myself. razz Still, some of the most peaceful minds in the world have embraced this philosophy. i myself am open to the idea of "no purpose" in the universe, and in fact live in a way that is determined only by self-given meaning. "i am because i want to be." see? course, i have had alot of Hindi influences growing up. xd
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:19 pm
just found this in the thread in the guild where i origionally got on this topic. Mau Aita Dirac ----If it does not fit the definition it is not that word, a God is a supreme being (ie. nothing is beyond it, therby it is completly metaphysical), and unless you want gabriel, zeus, quetzalcoatl, and various emperors to be classifiable as gods we cast away the inclusive definition (ie. any divine being who presides over worldly affairs) and accept the exclusive definition of a Supreme being often Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipressent, and Eternal / Uncreated (which is continuosly alluded to even if only in passing mention throughout the world, such as Ometeotl, Hiranyagarbha, Elohim, Allah, Bythos, Hunab K'u, Aten, Ahura Mazda, Oyagamisama, etc.)... ----so human beings by definition are almost it's antithesis, weak (we have no true control), foolish (Unwilling to grasp what is in front of us, or to learn from our mistake), can only be at one point at one time, we are born & we die... ----Aliens and sapient beings and beings whom have eaten from the fruit of life beings are no more than varieties of humans themselves, they are not Gods. This universe may be one of an infinite number of universes within the flexiverse (holographic principle), with an infinite number of flexiverses or "Membranes" in the multiverse (all of reality, without begining or end in time or space), and in each universe countless black holes containing singularities of infinitely curved spacetimes with no radius (what I call Black Hole Theology); at the will of an Īśvara known but not understood. ----A God residing in it's Nirvana, continuosly creating countless Geneses, that within each may be contained a multitude of humanities, with trees of life and knowledge (or Jiva and Atman), individual physical laws and Guf chambers, in their own cycles of Saṃsāra. ----In this Irony Nirvana & God may be the "Dream" & the "Womb" at the end of our "Reality" (Genesis), and vice versa, equally if not more real than Genesis itself. Maby certain humanities are capeable of undergoing Apotheosis and joining with God inside Nirvana into the "Dream", but maby those same beings have the choice to accept "Reality" & remain within Genesis. Do we each get a Saoshyant / Messiah / Bodhisattva? ----Maby god is Paramātmā? ----Random food for thought... Sorry for the lengthy non-sense...
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:28 pm
I think you should really look into Taoism, Chieftan, I believe you would like what you find. Taoism explains how the Tao is everything and nothing, everywhere and nowhere, it exists within all things and can be found if you know how to look.
Taoism seems to me to be a "watered down" version of Christianity. Parables, creator, morals, etc. All very similar. The only difference is the absence of a guy named Jesus Christ. This is why I took to Taoist Christianity. I believe the Taoist teachings, but also believe in Christ.
Buddhism was thrown in by the fact that Christianity teaches us to be like Jesus, but so few people understand what that means. Jesus was, basically, a Buddhist in nearly every way.
In Native American beliefs the "Great Spirit"(yet another name for God) is much like the Tao teaches. Existent within all things, ever present, etc.
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