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witchunterobin Vice Captain
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 Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:41 pm
Okay... sorry... This is a part rant and part release from past bonds.
I happen to just watch the M+R forum for a little while. No posting. Nothing. However, what I did see was disgusting, so much that I'm shaking in anger right now.
As many of your know, to avoid more hassles, it is a wise decision to NOT post anything about Wicca in the M+R. I learned this a while ago while trying to help someone. The elitist group that ravenously rips people's beliefs to shreds, as if they have nothing better in life to do, makes my hair stand on end in over-whelming anger.
In my Interpersonal Communications class, I've learned that this dogmatic behavior, which they proudly flaunt, is because they are afraid of their beliefs will be over-run with Eclectic beliefs and their "need for inclusion" will dissolve.
I'm tired of people being bashed for beliefs that are Pagan. We, as an awesome spiritual family, have a great benefit from talking to one another. Sharing info, beliefs, and the like are one of the many things that make us who we are today. I'm glad that we can accept each other's beliefs, even if we have a small scuffle or a general confusion.
Again, I apologize for this abrasive topic, but I needed to tell someone and you all are here to see it. I really try not to harp on others and realize that my position on this topic may not be supported, however, it is another challenge/problem/test we face.
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:50 am
You're not the only one who is angered by the way Pagans are treated. Every time I see something in the media, whether it's a tv show, a book, etc. that I come across that's bashing Pagans and making them typical "Pagans = Satanists", I grow livid. If I read in a book about a witch, or someone who's called a witch, and read about how they're treated (even if it's a work of fiction), I get so mad that either I'd want to throw the book across the room, or I'd have an argument of righteous anger (even if I'm the only one in the room at the time).
The thing is ... we don't know when exactly all these narrow-minded, self-elitist, "my-religion-is-the-greatest-and-should-be-the-only-one-out-there" people would wake up and realize that witches, and Pagans in general, are not what they think they are, and should be treated with respect.
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witchunterobin Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:35 pm
Nerilaith You're not the only one who is angered by the way Pagans are treated. Every time I see something in the media, whether it's a tv show, a book, etc. that I come across that's bashing Pagans and making them typical "Pagans = Satanists", I grow livid. If I read in a book about a witch, or someone who's called a witch, and read about how they're treated (even if it's a work of fiction), I get so mad that either I'd want to throw the book across the room, or I'd have an argument of righteous anger (even if I'm the only one in the room at the time). The thing is ... we don't know when exactly all these narrow-minded, self-elitist, "my-religion-is-the-greatest-and-should-be-the-only-one-out-there" people would wake up and realize that witches, and Pagans in general, are not what they think they are, and should be treated with respect. You have those too! I'm also talking about the Pagan elitists as well.
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:00 pm
Actually, that is true as well. There had been some who would go to CUUPS, and would stop going because they'd think the group's too cliquey, we're doing things bass-ackwards, or we're just not too perfect for them. There are many who don't fully understand that the group's supposed to be a learning experience to those who are coming into Paganism, and we're teaching what it is about. We're open to new Pagan experiences, but those who think that we're not doing things right aren't really coming forward to teach their own experiences and help beginners learn.
For the past couple of years now, we've been trying to figure out what's missing, what it is we're not doing right, and what exactly do the people want. We've even asked people what they would like to see done in the rituals or just in the group in general, but no one's come forth with suggestions yet. There's even a few of us that are a little burnt out because fewer and fewer people are coming forth to want to do a ritual, and the same 3 or 4 people are stuck with picking up the slack.
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:40 pm
This reminds me of an atricle I read this week on Witchvox (sorry, its like the fun newspaper for me to read on Sundays sweatdrop ). I think it was titled "How Pagan is Pagan Enough?", and the author went on about how she and her family got some very discriminative emails about thier appearance after attending a Pagan Pride fest. Within our own community! All because they had picked normal clothes over those that stereotype us (a.k.a flowy skirts and shirts, tribal prints, screen tees, ect. Things that I myself wear, but not to be more Pagan than the next person...).
I mean, seriously, we're now expected to dress a certain part, but at the same time have to have this filter on when we learn and practice to discriminate between whats "legit" and what is "fluff". "It's ridiculous, but I guess there are fanatic in each religion" (a comment my boyfriend made when I told him about this). You can foster only so much open-mindedness, I grant them that, but to bash those who try to be "normal" (by whatever definition that may be to them), its just sick.
It's a poor idiom that my mother uses, and I by no means mean that teachers cannot hack it (in fact, without teachers, even if they are ourselves or the trees around us, where would we learn?), but she says "those who cannot do, teach." I think it should be changed to "Those who cannot do, bash."
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:50 pm
I feel so out of place...nothing too discussion worthy here
I know what you mean. I'm very careful what I chose to look at in some forums after a few experiences. I gotta know I can distance myself or I don't know what might happen being in the forum...like a post I might regret. Elitists in anything give me this sick icky feeling a serious blow to my self confidence if its large part of me (like a dream of mine). I wish they wold realize that on a lot of occasions they just make themselves sound pretty stupid....
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:02 pm
And a lot have to understand that the newer generations of Pagans are still learning. We even had some elitist problems here in this guild, and in the forum recruitment thread for it. All of us here are giving information from what we had learned from so far - as for me, it's 13 years worth of not just CUUPS, but taking classes at metaphysical shops, taking trips to Salem, and learning from priests/esses, sages, crones, and other people who had helped me along the way ... just to have someone say I took things out of Silver Ravenwolf's books (and meaning it in a bad way) ...?
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Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:18 pm
Oh yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, I lurk and post in M&R pretty often when I get online, I'm pretty familiar with the Pagan regulars there too.
And, agreed, never post anything about Wicca in M&R unless you're ready for a twenty page paper on how Wicca is an orthopraxic mystery withcult consisting of clergy created by Gardner in the 60's, or a simple link to either the PFRC or the Wicca FAQ (profit?) thread, which is about the equivalent of the same thing.
*rubs forehead* Okay, maybe I need another hiatus.
Anywho, yeah it's fine they want to educate about traditional Wicca and such, which is great, but being an individual just like anyone else searching for their path, initiate or not, it feels wrong telling them something along the lines of "no, stop calling yourself that" when thats pretty much the only thing that literature on the subject calls it when the seeker is looking for something to learn from.
It's like an individual would believe in the Christian God, but doesn't go to church regularly, and people who do would say, "no, you're not a real Christian, this is what's up, now GTFO".
With respect to the initiates, its understandable that their practices are just the way it was created and has to remain that way, but some of the hostility is a bit unnecessary towards the newbs just trying to reach for some common ground.
It's impossible to say that Trad Wicca hasn't inspired individuals to create something similar under a similar name, when the only material available is the "outer court" material that was inspired by someone in that original sect (Trad Wicca). So if someone wants to call themselves a Solitary or Eclectic Wiccan, so be it. Its up to them if they want to drop the name, or find themselves falling under some other category. The names themselves explain enough to say that they are not a member of the few branches of initiated Traditional Wiccans. If so, then they would say they are a Gardenarian, Alexandrian, Blue Star, Feraferia, ...etc. (Then they'd have to state their initiatory lineage according to the Wicca rules and guidelines of the M&R.)
I'm actually reading a book about the origin of Traditional Wicca and its history called "Modern Wicca". Forgot the author, but it's in my collection now, and so far it's pretty informative.
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witchunterobin Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:23 pm
I was wondering if your were going to say something. :] You've got bawls for posting in there. It's nice to see that everyone has different experiances with the same idea too.
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:37 pm
witchunterobin I was wondering if your were going to say something. :] You've got bawls for posting in there. It's nice to see that everyone has different experiances with the same idea too.
That was also directed towards the masses of New Age books out today (which many of us learn from), because the name "Wicca" sells.
Even though the authors Cunningham and Buckland barely made it through first degree in the Gardenarian tradition (also a debatable statement), pieces of the guidance they do give out is based on "outer court" Wiccan material. So it can't be totally helped that the books have content from "outer court Wicca" thus the book title might have "Wicca" in it, and people learn from these books because they're interested in "Wicca" and eventually they become "Wiccan". Maybe not traditionally, maybe not an initiate, but its a word they can identify themselves with. I see nothing wrong with that.
The word "Wicca" can sell just as well as "Witchcraft", not because Wicca is an "initiatory mystery witchcult created by Gerald Gardner in the 60's", but because Wicca is more known as religious witchcraft. (And let's be serious, with as mysterious and secretive it is, without reading one of those "credible" books, a "legitimate" site, or speaking to an initiate, who the heck would figure out its an initiatory witchcult?)
And, as we already know, witchcraft can be religious as well as irreligious without "Wicca", eventually it catches on.
I think that's part of the reason why I stopped identifying myself as Wiccan, because for me, eventually Wicca felt limiting, when I wanted to expand my experience. It got me on a good start though, I will admit.
Haha, and this reminds me of another rather agressive M&R topic. To put it short, "culture rape". Usually goes hand-in-hand with the Wicca subject.
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witchunterobin Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:10 pm
I just hope they get to know the phrases: "It had to have started somewhere." and "Who was the first ____ and how?"
That's the only reason I'm too too worked up over it. I remember trying to help this girl by telling her book stores to go to. Just over that, I was pounced on and had every sentence torn apart one by one. If they could realize how many people who are older than them, even just by a few years, call themselves Solitary or Eclectic Wiccan, maybe they wouldn't be that way.
I'm droning on though. However, I do realize there is no right way or wrong way of how religion goes as long as you have the basics.
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:26 pm
At the end of the day this is a website for teenagers and anime fans in most respects. It's not a website specifically for witchcraft. The majority of people on this site are immature and are talking out of a different orifice then their mouth. They do not care about feelings and other peoples views, It's just about their narrowminded view and all they want to do is drive it home in a argument for the heck of it. If you really want to have deep actual discusions then this is the wrong website for you because of the people that use this site. I myself just ghost this place now when bored and pretty much only log on daily to see if anything has happened in this guild that I can be bothered to talk about.
It's like going into a street gang and wondering why they wont sit down and talk their differences out. just stop using this site for discussions of this matter. All it will bring you is rage since these people can not be argued with.
Ps: besides most of the so called wiccan/witches or whatever they call themselves on this site are the type that when they grow older will no longer be interested in paganism. It's just a phase for them.
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:28 pm
witchunterobin I just hope they get to know the phrases: "It had to have started somewhere." and "Who was the first ____ and how?"
[sarcasm]Ah, I can't wait to create my own religion. [/sarcasm]Quote: If they could realize how many people who are older than them, even just by a few years, call themselves Solitary or Eclectic Wiccan, maybe they wouldn't be that way.
Um, Morality Turmoil, should I take your post seriously, or are you just having one of those days? I'm having a hard time deciding whether or not to ignore or argue your post.
P.S. I had to drop by your profile really quick because something told me I had to. I spotted your picture. You look really really familiar. surprised
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:07 pm
Yeah it's been one of those days, well all to many one of those days recently. It's directed at and about the people in the main forums, not the people in this guild.
I get allot of people saying I look very familiar to them but they can never say where from. Have any ideas?
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