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Pre-existence of the soul?

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rmcdra

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:34 pm


Is pre-existence of the soul part of Judaism? Is there scripture and Talmud to support or refute this? Can I have verses quoted please?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:00 pm


The Soul enters the Fetus 40 Days after Conception.

I heard that somewhere.

Lumanny the Space Jew

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Artto

PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:57 pm


Lumanny the Space Jew
The Soul enters the Fetus 40 Days after Conception.

I heard that somewhere.


But is it supposed to exist previous to that?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:16 am


Artto
Lumanny the Space Jew
The Soul enters the Fetus 40 Days after Conception.

I heard that somewhere.


But is it supposed to exist previous to that?
Yeah that's more of what I'm getting at. From what I've explored so far, God created all souls at the time of creation and thus pre-exist before conception. Islam has this stance as well. Most of Christianity has the stance that souls do not pre-exist before conception. I have found some verses in the Torah that support the pre-existence of souls but I might be misreading verses

rmcdra

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Itachi_Hare

PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:01 am


rmcdra
Artto
Lumanny the Space Jew
The Soul enters the Fetus 40 Days after Conception.

I heard that somewhere.


But is it supposed to exist previous to that?
Yeah that's more of what I'm getting at. From what I've explored so far, God created all souls at the time of creation and thus pre-exist before conception. Islam has this stance as well. Most of Christianity has the stance that souls do not pre-exist before conception. I have found some verses in the Torah that support the pre-existence of souls but I might be misreading verses
If all souls were created at the beginning of everything we know doesn't that point toward reincarnation? Or does that refer to a giant waiting room for souls who have yet to be physically born?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:10 am


Itachi_Hare
If all souls were created at the beginning of everything we know doesn't that point toward reincarnation? Or does that refer to a giant waiting room for souls who have yet to be physically born?


Even in the case of reincarnation, I guess there'd have to be some sort of waiting room for souls, since the number of living things isn't constant. Or maybe there are some people and animals that don't have souls, because they ran out smile

Artto


Itachi_Hare

PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:48 am


Artto
Itachi_Hare
If all souls were created at the beginning of everything we know doesn't that point toward reincarnation? Or does that refer to a giant waiting room for souls who have yet to be physically born?


Even in the case of reincarnation, I guess there'd have to be some sort of waiting room for souls, since the number of living things isn't constant. Or maybe there are some people and animals that don't have souls, because they ran out smile
Agreed, and actually in the majority of reincarnation religions I think there is reference to a waiting room area... like the summerland ect.... of course you also have to take into account that while our population grows the populations of other species deplete... as well as the variation between predators and prey creatures in any givin area...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:58 am


Itachi_Hare
of course you also have to take into account that while our population grows the populations of other species deplete... as well as the variation between predators and prey creatures in any givin area...


Well that works in environments with a stable ecology. But in natural disasters (volcano, tsunami, meteor and such), a lot of living things die, and don't get replaced. That's where the "soul waiting room" would have to come into the picture smile

Artto


rmcdra

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:43 pm


Here we go. It is in the Talmud.

From Chagigah 12b
‘Araboth is that in which there are Right and Judgment and Righteousness, the treasures of life and the treasures of peace and the treasures of blessing, the souls of the righteous and the spirits and the souls which are yet to be born, and dew wherewith the Holy One, blessed be He, will hereafter revive the dead.
Emphasis mine.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:59 pm


In the bible somewhere GOD said he knew us before we were knitted in our mothers womb, which sounds like a pre-exsistance to me, but maybe not a concious one for us. What do you think?

quietstorm 2

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Lumanny the Space Jew

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:05 pm


rmcdra
Here we go. It is in the Talmud.

From Chagigah 12b
‘Araboth is that in which there are Right and Judgment and Righteousness, the treasures of life and the treasures of peace and the treasures of blessing, the souls of the righteous and the spirits and the souls which are yet to be born, and dew wherewith the Holy One, blessed be He, will hereafter revive the dead.
Emphasis mine.

The Talmud can be tricky with wording, especially English translation. Who did you use, Shottenstien? What does the Hebrew or Aramaic say: Born, or Conceived?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:17 pm


Lumanny the Space Jew
rmcdra
Here we go. It is in the Talmud.

From Chagigah 12b
‘Araboth is that in which there are Right and Judgment and Righteousness, the treasures of life and the treasures of peace and the treasures of blessing, the souls of the righteous and the spirits and the souls which are yet to be born, and dew wherewith the Holy One, blessed be He, will hereafter revive the dead.
Emphasis mine.

The Talmud can be tricky with wording, especially English translation. Who did you use, Shottenstien? What does the Hebrew or Aramaic say: Born, or Conceived?
Here's where I got it from halakhah.com

rmcdra

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Artto

PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:35 pm


quietstorm 2
In the bible somewhere GOD said he knew us before we were knitted in our mothers womb, which sounds like a pre-exsistance to me, but maybe not a concious one for us. What do you think?

Probably just a reference to omniscience.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:40 pm


someone needs to find that bible reference for me, because i've been getting into fights with jw's about it, who say that we were nothing when we were born and become nothing when we die. i've repeatedly quoted a verse in the bible about faith being dead without works "just as the body is dead without the spirit, so is faith without works" (paraphrasing a verse in james), therefore saying that there is a spirit/soul before there is a body, and it probably just doesn't vanish when we die.
i personally feel that there is a pre-existence with a pre-existing soul for everyone (whether or not it's reincarnated is a different story).

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rmcdra

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:11 am


SchizoSpazz
someone needs to find that bible reference for me, because i've been getting into fights with jw's about it, who say that we were nothing when we were born and become nothing when we die. i've repeatedly quoted a verse in the bible about faith being dead without works "just as the body is dead without the spirit, so is faith without works" (paraphrasing a verse in james), therefore saying that there is a spirit/soul before there is a body, and it probably just doesn't vanish when we die.
i personally feel that there is a pre-existence with a pre-existing soul for everyone (whether or not it's reincarnated is a different story).
Here are some quotes suggesting pre-existence of the soul and possibly reincarnation. Do take it with a grain of salt though since different traditions and sects have different interpretations of the following passages.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

"Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever. The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again...What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1:4-9)

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind." (Proverbs 8:22-31)

"He who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it." - Jesus Christ, Revelation 3:12

"He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish in his sight and love." (Ephesians 1:4)


Psalm 139:15, 16 "Thou knowest me right well; my frame was not hidden from thee when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me."

Acts 17:26 "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live."


"And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus answered, 'Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.'" (John 9:1)

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A person reaps what he sows." (Galatians 6:7)
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