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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:30 pm
I feel like we should set out the guild's standpoint on Wicca, so that everyone knows what they deal is, and additionally so that any questions can be asked so we can clarify what needs to be clarified.
This guild takes the standpoint that Wicca is an initiatory, ditheistic religion. Every Wiccan participates in group rituals whose purpose is to teach the Mysteries of Wicca through experiences. Every Wiccan can trace their initiatory lineage back to Gerald Gardner, the founder of Wicca.
There are some info-dumps we can provide if need be (I thought I'd avoid it at this point in case of a TL;DR), but for now, if there are any questions please, please ask them. We will attempt to answer them in full, with patience.
The reason for this thread, really, is that often these discussions turn into flaming rows. I'd like to get this all out of the way now with as little drama as possible.
Please keep in mind, when reading or posting: The reality of what Wicca is and is not in no way reflects on the legitimacy of your own religion. If this information causes you any distress or upsets you, please take a few breaths before responding. We know that discovering something like this can come as a shock. Rest assured that nothing here is an attack on you or on the religion you practise. Before presenting counter-arguments, first think of what questions you could ask to determine how we reached the standpoint we have given here. Once we've clarified, you can refine your arguments. Having said that, this is not a proper debate thread. It's not intended to be about the counter-and-thrust of a debate. We seek only to clarify and aid understanding herein.
This thread may become a sticky.
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:58 am
Okay.. Reading the PFRC gave me an idea/question. As Tea said, Gardner called his cult "the Wica" with one c, correct? So where the hell did the extra c come from, and why is it used to refer to his cult? I've noticed that lots of people find that letters matter in weird things, like people using the k in magick. The argument is that Thelema used it for numerology reasons, so you shouldn't have a need to use it unless you're from his tradition, right? Then why do we refer to Gardner's cult as "Wicca" when he never did?
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:45 pm
kage no neko Okay.. Reading the PFRC gave me an idea/question. As Tea said, Gardner called his cult "the Wica" with one c, correct? So where the hell did the extra c come from, and why is it used to refer to his cult? I've noticed that lots of people find that letters matter in weird things, like people using the k in magick. The argument is that Thelema used it for numerology reasons, so you shouldn't have a need to use it unless you're from his tradition, right? Then why do we refer to Gardner's cult as "Wicca" when he never did? I can only really say what I've heard, which is that the spelling was standardised to "Wicca" in the '60s. Let's not forget that most of the time, Gardner referred to his religion as just "Witchcraft", which is no longer considered, well, appropriate. The word he was drawing from was "Wicca", pronounced "witch-a", meaning "male witch". Given that he was British, it's possible he spelt it "Wica" originally to stress the hard C, lest someone pronounce it "witch-a" when he did not intend it - or perhaps the New Forest Coven spelt it with the single C and Gardner discovered the (supposed) etymology and added the extra C later. In the case of Magick, the definition given by Crowley when he describes it really does depend on one being a Thelemite. It goes on about Will and stuff, which is distinct from what we'd think of as 'will'. It was created specifically, as far as I know, to distinguish his "art and science" from other forms of (probably ceremonial) magic. As far as Crowley was concerned, practically any act was Magick so long as it was concurrent with one's Will, Will being something along the lines of fate or destiny. Or something. "The Wica" is used, but to apply to the adherents rather than the religion itself. "Wicca" appears to have gained strength via use by Aunt Doreen and co. See here for more info.
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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:42 am
Okay. I don't fully agree, but I understand.
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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:27 pm
I am going to try and word this the best that I can, so I'm not trying to be rude. It's just a question that I think a lot of people would like to hear an answer on. Being that Wicca came about in the 1900s, do you feel that it pays enough respect to the ancient teachings? What draws people to it since it is a newer almost reconstruction of ancient religions.
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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:05 pm
celticfireguardian I am going to try and word this the best that I can, so I'm not trying to be rude. It's just a question that I think a lot of people would like to hear an answer on. Being that Wicca came about in the 1900s, do you feel that it pays enough respect to the ancient teachings? What draws people to it since it is a newer almost reconstruction of ancient religions. I'm kind of unsure what you're asking exactly. Something doesn't have to be old to be important or valid. What ancient teachings do you have in mind? People are drawn because they feel called by the gods of Wicca or to that particular calling (priesthood), or other, personal reasons not summed up in words. I'm not so sure I'd classify Wicca as a "recon" faith.
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Violet Song jat Shariff Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:29 pm
Vi kind of hit it right on the head... what Ancient teachings?
A Reconstruction religion is one where a group of people takes the specific practices of a particular culture and tries to (as closely as possible) recreate them. Wicca is a blending of many different practices (some older, some relatively new), it is not a Recon. Even if one accepts the existence of the New Forest Coven, it still wouldn't qualify as a Recon, since at that point, it would be a continuation of an "original" practice, not one that was reconstructed.
Wiccan inspired - Eclectic/Neo-Pagan practices, I might consider calling them a Recon - in cases where they are trying to adhere strictly to published BTW outer-court material, but that would still be pushing it (since without the core/Mysteries it's just not Wicca).
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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:32 pm
What I mean is any ancient teachings, I wasn't trying to be particular. I was just asking, since I know a lot of Wiccans around here get asked. It's just a matter of people's feelings that they are worshipping a "new" religion instead of an old one.
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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:33 pm
and I consider it at least partially reconstructed because so many ancient rituals, vows, teachings have been lost other the years. So in some ways you have to redue some things.
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Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:26 am
celticfireguardian and I consider it at least partially reconstructed because so many ancient rituals, vows, teachings have been lost other the years. So in some ways you have to redue some things. That's sort of the point we were making... Depending on how you look at it, Wicca is either an entirely new religion, or it is a continuation of one - and either way all the core material has been preserved in the BOS... so there are not any lost "ancient" rituals, vows, teachings, etc...
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:20 am
Thank you for your point of view.
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:41 pm
shadowflameguardian and I consider it at least partially reconstructed because so many ancient rituals, vows, teachings have been lost other the years. So in some ways you have to redue some things. Gardner claims the rituals he had access to were fragmentary. He had to embellish them with a damn hell of a lot of Ceremonialism. He essentially constructed the rituals from bits and pieces, some of which may (or may not) have been continuations of relatively old practices. Either way, his rituals as they stand now aren't much older than 60 years old. I wouldn't say "reconstructed" in the sense that it is often used within Paganism, as Gardner wasn't creating something legitimately based on ancient ritual. Parts of it may have been old continuations, but for those reconstruction would not be necessary. There is nothing to reconstruct. wink
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:05 pm
Not entirely sure if this has been asked but... as I was under the idea that Wicca was a dithestic religion that centered on Earth and Fertility and positivity and in no way had to be practiced in a Coven or required um intiation..what the hell do you call what I was calling Wicca?
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:50 pm
PersianPapiiChulo Not entirely sure if this has been asked but... as I was under the idea that Wicca was a dithestic religion that centered on Earth and Fertility and positivity and in no way had to be practiced in a Coven or required um intiation..what the hell do you call what I was calling Wicca? Basically... Wicca is a specific pagan religion. It was founded in the 1940's by a man named Gerald Gardner, and is based on the practice of witchcraft, as well as bits and pieces from other older pagan religions/practices, free-masonry and ceremonial magic. It is an orthopraxic (correct practices are more important than correct beliefs), mystery religion, that is oath bound and requires coven initiation (usually man to woman, woman to man). It has specific deities (in this case the Lord and Lady of the Isles) and is primarily concerned with fertility (the cycle of birth-life-death-rebirth), rather than nature as a whole. You will not find all that much info on Trad Wicca from books or on the internet, most of what is available to the public, refers to Eclectic Neo-Pagan paths (which are often mislabeled as Eclectic, Solitary or Neo-Wicca). These paths are often based on the non-oath bound (outer-court) parts of Wiccan practices, but are missing the oath-bound, core material (without this core material - it's not Wicca). It is always good to note the difference between the two, as there are many who won't recognize any claim of "Wiccan" outside of traditional paths. That isn't to say that one's practices and beliefs are necessarily invalid, but simply that they have often been mislabeled. It is the sad truth that there are a a good many authors out there who care more for making $$$, than for the fact that what they were writing is misleading at best, and at worst (in some cases anyways) outright lies.
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:23 pm
So can use and follow Wiccan practices or concepts without being Intiated, your just not Wiccan. That helps tremendously! Thank you.
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