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A TON of misinformation floats out there about Pagan religions. I think we're all well aware of that. It's so prevalent that it's become a HUGE problem. But the fact is that we are incapable of *forcing* someone to believe anything, even if it is more historically legitimate.

So how do you respond to someone who believes that misinformation?

I personally believe that if you have to get aggressive (when it comes to their beliefs) its very rarely worth it. When they're set in their ways, the most you can do is chase them off so we don't have to deal with them. But, that just cuts them off from a good avenue for learning.

Thoughts? Rebuttals? Contributions?

I also think it goes both ways. I've seen when someone questions the original questioner the said questioner freaks out as well. Approaching topics of religion in general require maturity and some humility on both sides.

This is also where restating the issue may have to come in. I've done that a few times, even here. When it became clear people didn't want to actually hear me out despite my attempts to show a benign stance I've just walked away because it's energy wasted on, quite frankly, the internet. It's about priorities sometimes.

Now, if you'll read the thread in question, you'll notice that I'm not the one to whom the question was addressed. Yet, I'm the one who visibly blew up. The person to whom this was addressed has yet to reply to the thread again.

The post which contained the question contained nothing else. While elegant in it's simplicity, the internet messageboard medium leaves especially the tone of the question open to interpretation. Given where the conversation eventually goes, how many members often participate in the attempt to convert one person in this matter of fact way, (which visibly lacks concern for their well-being and happiness,) of course they're going to blow up! "You all are persecuting me!" visibly becomes their attitude. No reassurance was given, which *would* serve to invalidate hostility and quicken the process of grieving the old belief system. Not a very strong way to effectively convert someone, as nothing was done to prevent the conflict. I believe we have seen this narrative play out before, both where the person converts, and where the person just gets a persecution complex.

Also, as 4shi pointed out, this was derailed another thread. The Rules and Guidelines forbid this; the Terms of service reference those rules, effectively placing them in the ToS itself.

I'm not saying this was done out of malice; the resurgence of scholarship you hope to bring would be an incredible boon to the Neo-Pagan community.

However, when a pattern of derailed threads, failed conversions and mutual lingering resentments arises, as I believe it has among some guilds, most people would rather just walk away. I know of at least one guild which has banned folks for this method of spreading scholarship, and attempts to screen new members for the same attitude. Scholarship has improved some, but we have a needlessly fractured Pagan community here on Gaia.

ncsweet, my response for xLady Tsukiyox is also intended for you.

I can understand being exhausted. I can relate; the professors in the Math department at my university loves to pretend I have nothing to do but homework for their class. The work for my major easily adds up to 8 hours a day outside of class, and I'm hunting for a job to make sure I can keep going biggrin but with this economy, we all know how well that's going. Then there's the constant papers for my minor, and other commitments I made... I need a break, and I hope you get yours too.

As for the Neo-Wiccans who get defensive about their trad and lineage - yes it is a problem when they claim to be Gardinerian, Alexandrian or British Trad. Or when some claim to be Druids, Asatru, and any number of words that describe *someone else*. The fact is that ideas, even religions evolve and split. No one asked us to like it. They may not be Wiccans in the sense you're used to, but hey, ask the Pope what he thinks of those pesky Lutherans. From his pattern of erasing the progressive measures of previous Popes, Gregory might even give you an answer close that of a Pope during the Protestant Reformation.

These Neo-Wiccans do have a trend of intellectual dishonesty. However, calling them on it won't stop all of them, in spite of how authenticity wins many. Giving them some info from/on other Trads, and letting them make the explicit choice between the Trads and Neo-Wicca without judgment, seems a more disciplined, diplomatic and ultimately community oriented solution, especially where Solitaries are concerned.

A pharaoh of Egypt tried to bring in monotheism to his nation. The god Aten was forced upon all, his name, and that of the Pharaoh engraved in stone wherever possible. When the people rebelled, they scored both names out of everything they could find to erase the history. It took painstaking reconstruction to find even this much, thousands of years later - but the people forgot this infraction on their culture, just as they wished.

Neo-Wicca pulls from the Wicca you know in varying degrees. While Wicca to Neo-Wicca involves a relative compression of available religious information, we might compare it to the expansion of religious information from previous Christians to modern Mormons. Mormons are no less Christian, though some Christians would disagree. Is a Lutheran less Christian for not believing in the Trinity? The examples could go on for pages.

I'm not saying Wicca should cast aside lineages and traditions. Instead, I propose allowing Neo-Wicca to exist as its own separate thing. Maybe we can encourage them lay down some sort of structure for themselves, though I doubt they'll take it. The virtues of this Millenarian religion, Neo-Wicca, reflect a new emphasis on individuality related to authority structures - as per the theory laid out by Kenelm Burridge. It is as though Anarchist punk let loose it influence in Western culture, and it found a home... in the virtues of Neo-Wicca, as practiced by teenagers.

While the adherents of Wicca are relatively few, and it doesn't seem to have the follower-mass or age to need evolving, that's not my decision. Nor is it yours. I'm not proud of the fact that Peter Carrol's writings on Chaos Magic Theory contributed toward the cultural influence of... "The Secret" and "What the Bleep do we Know?", but those things are outside of the realm of my control. Burridge proposes that a changing relationship with authority pushes such new religious movements into existence, and I'm inclined to agree with him.

I understand your reservations about this; however, Neo-Wiccans are held to the same standard - no one is going to do their rituals for them. Self-initiated members of this belief structure especially know this.

When lineaged Wicca is unavailable, these people have little choice but to attempt to find the most credible rituals and practices they can find, and adopt the beliefs that come with it. Hopefully their information is not Scott Cunningham or Silver Ravenwolf, but all too often it is. When they're working in this context, they don't have the time to study everything before they begin - they have to learn as they go, or they don't get to be anything like Wiccan. And that's not what our culture values - hard work, when there's another way that we might not even know about?

Hence, these communities become one of the best resources they have; this makes it even worse to risk chasing them away. Good luck telling them they can't be Wiccan if you *really* want to. I must insist that if you do, you do so with understanding.

The best way I see to combat the academic dishonesty of it all would be to publish credible information from a lineage - and wouldn't that break an oath or two?

Besides... if you go to a Black Dahlia Murder show, where the band is Death Metal, how many of those kids listened to Korn or Linkin Park before they found their more authentic experience in Metal? The information was available to them, so they followed it - they didn't need to be hurried along. When the trend dies, the scene-sters just move on. Glam Rock in the 1980s, grunge, then Numetal in the 90s, and now metalcore and emo in the current decade.

I'm curious as to how much of this pattern many of the Neo-Wiccans will follow.

All of that aside, they'll still call themselves Wiccans. Chase Clifton, one of the widely acknowledged forerunners of the Neopagan movement has acknowledged Neo-Wicca as a rising trend. We can't stop it. Instead, I would propose that we make lineaged Wicca more available to ensure it's survival.

The rise of reading ability (though not necessarily literacy), culminating with widespread internet access has accelerated change in people's beliefs about the world; and this just one example. This was the thesis for my paper on Aliens in my folklore class.

"Operation Paperclip" was one interpretation of the Roswell incident which painted Nazi scientists carrying experiments in Roswell New Mexico, and connected this with a pre-existing theory of an Antarctic Nazi base. Suddenly in the 1970s, when publishing got easier (and paperback books were suddenly much cheaper than before, relative to hardcover books), we have books about Antarctic Nazi UFO bases, where the tests were carried out in New Mexico. One group claimed in the 90s that this base is waiting on the fleet of a race of giant Aryans from the Aldebaran system to arrive so they can take over the world for the Master Race.

Another interpretation, "Project Serpo" is visibly a hoax. It's account details an interplanetary citizen exchange program with the "Greys" who's home is in the binary star system Zeta Reticuli. These are your stereotypical anthropomorphic, gray, big-headed and bug-eyed, black eyed aliens. One major site documents the internet communication of a supposed Roswell informant detailing the story; another major site, quite literally, documents the alleged process of the prank, saying literally, "Stop it Chad. This isn't funny." However, people believe it anyway; it pulled from and corroborated with a vast array of conspiracy theory and alien lore on these "Greys".

This is just a small example thereof. I put these forward only as an example of the changes that rising reading ability and internet access have on our society. Neo-Wicca is another. In both instances, all we can do for most people involved is *watch* (or not, or maybe even laugh at the tinfoil hats). But among folks who want to take an educational role in the Neopagan community, it is necessary to stay abreast of the relevant trends.

I've got a paper to write. I'll be back tomorrow to check this thread.

Just so you know, I almost always link to valid sources and in most cases to the exact pages... doesn't usually make all that much of a difference.

On the name thing- the problem is that they are sill using the word Wicca, it only makes it worse if they are adding some other word in front of it. Wicca denotes something very specific - as someone who tried in vain to stick other deities into the roles of the Lord and Lady, I can tell you first hand it doesn't work very well. It is disrespectful to the Gods of the Wicca, and it is disrespectful to whatever Gods you are trying to force into those particular roles. Especially when you consider that they have myths/lore of their own, that have nothing to do with what Wicca believes in.

Each of those other things have religions associated with them - those interested in Egyptian beliefs have Kemeticism (either Orthodoxy or Recon), the Greeks have Hellenic Recon, Norse have Asatru and other forms of Heathenry... the list goes on. There is no need for them to be trying to make Wicca into something it is not, when there are plenty of other paths already available for them to choose from - if they would take the time to listen when others try to point them in the right direction. I wholeheartedly wish someone had told me 10 years ago about this, it would have sucked a whole lot less to find out when I was just starting out, then later when my practices were already more deeply ingrained.

If they were basing their practices on the "best info on Wicca and the culture in question they can find", then they wouldn't be calling themselves "XYZ Wiccan" they would know that it would be inappropriate to do so. As I said, it is disrespectful to the Wiccan religion and to the culture they are trying to force into roles that don't fit with their own myths/lore.

You seem to be assuming that Wicca is a non-specific "umbrella" type term, that can be slapped on to anything that has a vague resemblance to the outer-court practices. It isn't, as it refers to something fairly specific.

The orthopraxic nature of the Wicca religion, means that the core practices cannot be changed (in an orthopraxy, the core practices are more important than the core beliefs). These core practices includes cross-gender initiation into a coven that can trace lineage to Gardner and belief in the Lord and Lady of the British Isles (whose names are oath-bound and can only be learned once one is an initiate), among other things. You can add to the core (within certain limitations), but you cannot take away from them. Do so, and it is no longer Wicca.

While Wiccans are free to practice other relgions/paths and/or worship other Gods, as well as being Wiccan. Each one must be maintained as a separate practice - they cannot be mixed. Obviously people can call their paths whatever they want to, however the question I (and others) have to ask is, why would anyone cling to a word that does not accurately describe what they are practicing? Why would anyone want to force the Gods that they claim to love and/or have a relationship with, into roles that don't fit them, or go completely against the cultures that those Gods are a part of? It makes no sense to do so, yet people continue to do so all the time, with no care or concern for what they are doing.

Is it so wrong to want people to be responsible about the way that they treat other religions and cultures? What gives anyone the right to pick and choose whatever they want, without a second thought to if they actually have the right to do so? There is such a sense of "entitlement" in the Neo-Pagan scene, it's enough to make anyone ill. The fact is, just because we want to be a part of something, doesn't necessarily mean that we are meant to be a part of it.

No one is saying that people cannot make their own paths... we're simply asking that they be responsible about it, be respectful about it, and for them not to claim things that they have not earned the right to claim.