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 Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:57 pm
Is what you think you know really what you know, or just what you think because someone else said they know?
Confused? Success.
I'm not going to quote an entire page of wikipedia like so many others, but perhaps small portions and summarize the rest, and will leave references- few really want to read all that crap anyway. AGNOSTICISM
There are different levels of agnosticism, true. However, I think this is a good way of putting the basis:
Being agnostic does not mean you are atheist. It means you don't know, not only that you don't know, but that you can't know. You may accept the possibility of a higher power(which atheists do not), but you don't know, one way or the other. Agnosticism to me, is not a religion, but a philosophy, nor anti-religion, but a lack of.In contrast to Agnosticism the simplest definition of Atheism would be:
Atheism can be either the rejection of theism, or the position that deities do not exist. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:09 am
Types of Agnosticism
Strong/Permanent Agnosticism: The existence or non existence of a deity is unknowable. We humans do not have the capacity to understand or take in, or know, the "truth" if there is one. Just because something happens that we do not currently understand, does not mean God automatically gets the credit- Remember, we used to think it snowed because a goddess descended into Hades.
"A strong agnostic would say 'I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you.'"
Weak/open Agnosticism: The view that the existence or non existence of a deity is currently unknown, but not necessarily unknowable. This means no one currently knows, but that evidence might be given to change such views.
"A weak agnostic would say 'I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence we can find something out.'"
Apathetic Agnosticism: That the question of the existence of a deity is primarily academic, because should a deity exist, it seems unconcerned with the universe or it's inhabitants.
Ignosticism: Believe that a logical definition of deity must be accepted, before the question of it's existence can be answered.
Agnostic Theism: You do not claim to KNOW of the existence of a deity, but BELIEVE in one.
"If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe."-Søren Kierkegaard
Agnostic Atheism: You do not claim to KNOW of the existence of any deity, but do not BELIEVE in any.
Don't forget none of these must define you for you to qualify as agnostic, it can be any variation.
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:06 am
Stages of my views on religion, from earlier childhood to now.
Religion was nothing in my life until my father started taking me to church. When I was seven, I was very religious. In fact, I annoyed my mom with question such as, why did she not go to church? And was enthusiastic about getting baptized- which I was.
Then again, I was very gullible at this time, and a daddy's girl. He even convinced me around that time that boys were better and that I wanted to be one and therefore, I got a short haircut and went around calling myself Nick, my brothers name. Go figure.
When I was around nine, I started getting out of it, not so enthusiastic anymore. Within a couple years of not really caring, I did start to wonder about the different religions and how they relate and contrast.
Around twelve I termed that I did not have a specific religion, but still did believe in God AND Jesus. Which I suppose, meant I was still technically Christian. However, I had thought of how so many religions stem off of this, God and Jesus. Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Catholic, Protestant etc. Um, how did you know which one was right? How did you KNOW?
At this time, I believed some basic Christian's beliefs, but not everything in any one sect. I thought the extra rules and exact things was just a bunch of crap tacked on.
You may already see the lead to Agnosticism there. Yet, it wasn't until I was about Fourteen or so, that I officially became Agnostic- although I didn't even know what that word meant back then.
I decided that, with the numerous, countless religions out there. There was absolutely no reason that yours should be the correct one. How did you know if ANY of them were right? Much less your one in a million. Therefore, I couldn't even really know if God as defined by Christian religions, was true, or if Jesus was his son, or a regular man, or never lived at all.
I am not a scholar looking back on life, but currently sixteen, and, while lacking experience, I think of myself as rather intelligent, and have thought about this in depth from many different points of views as well as based on many observations.My Philosophies/Theories that lead to my Agnosticism.
Religion has been around probably just as long as human beings have themselves. Thousands, millions, of them. Why is the one you were taught or have chosen to believe, supposedly the one and only truth?
The Bible- Was written by prophets as instructed by God, as the belief goes. How do you know?
Some people wrote a book and told you the creator of all things told them to. And you believed it. Because someone told you it was the truth.
Hey, if I told you I was hearing voices out of nowhere or seeing winged human like things appearing to me, I'd be put in a mental hospital.
Jesus may or may not have really lived, but I highly doubt the rest is true even if he had. Perhaps he was a man that did a lot of great things or helped a lot of people- but things become exaggerated over time, not to mention, the reality of things spread by mouth are often distorted. And really, I wonder what Joseph had to say when the wife he had never ******** ended up pregnant by a winged(?) man that appeared to her in the middle of the night.
How is what we do today with religion any different then what the Greeks and Romans (etc) did thousands of years ago? They made up deities and stories to explain what they didn't understand.
Why do the seasons change? Because of the Earth's rotation around the sun. They didn't know that back then, therefore, they came up with something easier for them to understand at the time.
-We don't know how we got here, or what happens when we die. We fear the unknown, what we don't understand. Therefore, these questions must not remain unanswered because we eradicate what we fear. Thus, God, Heaven, and Hell are born.
Evidence! True, things have happened that are unexplainable. These can be termed as miracles, as well as other things- like paranormal activity. Angels? God's will that you survive?
So..... because you survived some illness against all odds and miraculously recovered because God wanted you to live? Talk about favoritism.
Feel some otherworldly presence? Is it God or angels. Maybe. Maybe it is something else entirely.
Someone know something they shouldn't? Is God telling them, or is it ESP? Which I realize, can also be argued at length.
-And, if these things are of a higher power, that would lead to evidence of their existence, but not of what religion is the truth, if any (I highly doubt any one is right at all.)
My form of Agnosticism: I don't think we have the capacity or the knowledge or capability to know the truth. I doubt my views will ever change, but I guess I can't officially be classified as a "Strong Agnostic" because I suppose if the clouds parted to make way for a brilliant light as a voice thundered out of thin air, telling us what the true religion was and filling me with divine presence- I might change my mind. Or question just what was in those nachos I ate (and ask where I can get some more) ;D
My ULTIMATE philosphy:
I don't know what the truth is, and unlike most people, I'm ok with that.A REVELATION!!!
Holidays aren't what you think they are sillies!
Easter- Basically, originally a celebration of the fertility goddess. Hey it makes sense, eggs, and then... well, you know what bunnies do in spring time ;D
Cuz you know... giant bunnies hid colored eggs when Jesus came back from the dead...?
Christmas- Was celebrated due to the winter solstice or in relation to the sun god/goddess, long before it was believed to be the day Christ was born. In fact, many pagan traditions shaped Christmas, leading to what it is today.
Yeah, big red bearded dude flying (magically!) in a slay with reindeer bringing presents by secretively sliding down your chimney... because Jesus was born, or symbolically, celebrated this day?
Halloween- Whether you think it's an engineered holiday, or Devil worship, the origin says otherwise. It is most often linked to a Celtic Festival of Samhain, or, Summer's end. The ancient celtics believed that the border between this world and the other world became thin which allowed spirits to pass through. Harmless spirits such as ancestors were welcomed, while harmful ones were warded off (which may be where masks and costumes originate)
-The name comes from All-Hallows-Even, the day be before All Hallows Day, not heard of until the 16th century.
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:10 am
What are you? What do you think? Are you Agnostic? Atheist? Religious? Why? Do you see my reasoning? Agree? Disagree? Your standing? Comments? Questions?
.... Am I crazy? (The answer is yes, but this isn't why ;D)
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:46 pm
I don't know if I believe in a higher power. I rightly think it's possible. I believe everything happens for a reason and accept that its possible that everything is decided by a higher power. Almost as if Fate was the higher power I believe in. I don't know XD
my beliefs are really mixed lately because I thought I had everything I believed in settled, but then talking to my sister threw me for a loop and I realized that two of my beliefs kind of contradicted each other and that affected how I viewed everything so I have to go and do some searching for my own beliefs to figure out more.
But as far as the Deities are concerned. I don't know if there is one, I do not worship one, but I think something is controlling everything that happens (for the time being until I get my confusion sorted out)...
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:56 pm
Well, basically by saying you accept the possibility, but don't necessarily believe in a higher power, as well as saying you don't know either way, would classify you as agnostic in the broader term. It's not like that sets anything in stone.
I understand what you mean as well. It's when you start questioning things that it gets complicated- which isn't really a bad thing, in my opinion.
I haven't "worshipped" a deity since I was 7 ;D
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:14 pm
Well, it's not even the deity I'm questioning.
(bare with me here, I'ma try and explain why I'm confused in a short way... if you need more detailed, I can try XD)
Ok, I had always believed that the future was decided for us. No matter what I did, it happened the way it was supposed to. So, like, if I was going to die from lung cancer, it was going to happen whether I smoked/been exposed to a lot of smoke or not.
My reasoning for this was::
1- A lot of women get pregnant while using 3 forms of contraceptives, yet several (healthy) women have reported that they have had bare sex for many years and never gotten pregnant until they tried for a baby.
2- I've known people who have smoked well into their 80s and 90s and never gotten lung cancer, yet I have also met people who have never touched a cigarette and lived in smoke-free houses their whole life and they have gotten lung cancer.
Pretty much any "coincidence of dumb luck" that you could imagine. Like, how is it that every single day, we unknowingly faced several lethal dangers, yet managed to survive. Driving in a car - I could have been in a wreck at any second that I was driving today, but I wasn't. It just wasn't meant to happen.
BUT - believing in this also means that you can't change your future, ne? Because it's already set how it is. Everything is planned out.
I was talking with my sister-in-law who is Wiccan. We were talking about the string theory. And it made a lot of sense to me. That lead to us talking about Deja Vu and separate planes of reality. Again, it made sense.
How everything we choose can directly change the outcome of our future. Like, on a separate plane of reality, I come to an intersection. I could go straight, left, or right. I choose left. In this reality, I come to an intersection and get a sense of dejavu. I turn right. Both paths lead different places and if I had gone one way, one thing would have happened, if I went the other, something else would have happened.
I could still believe this and believe that the end result of our life will happen the way its supposed to, but then I negate my belief that everything we do changes our future.
If I believe that everything we do changes the future, then I negate my belief that everything is planned out and it will happen the way it was meant to.
I need to find a happy medium but the two theories don't work together, but they both make such perfect sense to me =o
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:59 am
Hmm, interesting.
I would have to say that saying everything that happens was already determined to happen... leaves a pretty empty life. To think that you failed at something because you were supposed to fail. Or your child was run over by a car because she wasn't supposed to live beyond her whole three years.
You have nothing to live up to. Or even, saying that a serial killer was meant to kill?
I say this because I believe in free will, yet I admit, there are things and interesting coincidences that cannot be explained. But the reason why, I don't know. Maybe there are outside forces that manipulate things, but do so completely?
Some people also believe in a string of possible futures. Like if you do one thing, this will happen, and if you do another, this will happen, etc.
You can think of it this way as well: I've learned a lot about the mind and the brain in my psych class recently. It's an amazing thing. Billions upon billions of connections can be made to an extent we don't even know. It's the most complicated machine in the world.... And yet, we only use about 10% of it. Saying that we don't make choices ourselves after mulling over certain decisions for hours, is rendering the more interesting functions of the brain pointless.
If there is some supernatural force that presides over us, it can be thought that perhaps, they manipulate events to come out a certain way, but not every aspect. Perhaps some people have purposes and they choose whether or not to fulfill them, and that alters the course of the universe to a new playing field, who knows?
I love these kinds of questions though, it‘s fun to think about, if almost as frustrating as that damn rubix cube I just got… >>
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:29 am
Haha it's just that when I thought I knew, I didn't think about it much after that it was just my belief and happened that way... then my danged sister went and flipped it all out and I'm like cry lost soul cry so confused cry
I really just wish I knew for sure... but then again, if I knew for sure why everything happens then that doesn't make life much fun or mysterious, ne?
I have a friend from high school... he can solve rubix cubes in under a minute >.>
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:13 pm
I suppose that makes sense. I think most people just grow up with a religion and that's that, they don't question it, and just believe it because that's what they were taught they were supposed to do. Don't think about it in depth.
Then someone comes along saying all of these things that contradict it and that makes sense too? Well, you will either not even let yourself consider any of it and push it out of your mind, or let it influence your previous beliefs, leaving I suppose, something similar to the state you are in now.
I think there's a reason some of the world's most brilliant minds weren't very religious minds- but it didn't mean they didn't believe in something. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.
I just looked a few things up, and found this to be very interesting, you might like to take a look:
Was Einstein religious?
No friggin way!! I barely got close to getting one side one color... was only one left!! But I only got it yesterday lol. I doubt I'll ever be able to get it all back the way it was -_-
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:30 pm
Omg A Name
I suppose that makes sense. I think most people just grow up with a religion and that's that, they don't question it, and just believe it because that's what they were taught they were supposed to do. Don't think about it in depth.
Then someone comes along saying all of these things that contradict it and that makes sense too? Well, you will either not even let yourself consider any of it and push it out of your mind, or let it influence your previous beliefs, leaving I suppose, something similar to the state you are in now.
I think there's a reason some of the world's most brilliant minds weren't very religious minds- but it didn't mean they didn't believe in something. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.
I just looked a few things up, and found this to be very interesting, you might like to take a look:
Was Einstein religious?
No friggin way!! I barely got close to getting one side one color... was only one left!! But I only got it yesterday lol. I doubt I'll ever be able to get it all back the way it was -_-
I really like that bolded part. That is amazingly true. Well, I was brought up christian, but when I hit the age where I started to question everything, I was talking with people who weren't of the christian faith, which I am thankful for. They told me that there are several religions and everyone has to first find what they believe then put a label to that belief. I was Agnostic for 4 years before I ever knew I was considered Agnostic - If that makes sense XD I don't have a problem with the christian faith, but if I had taken my questions to my parents or family members, or someone that they would have wanted me to talk to, then I would have been blindly misguided. I also have a problem with a lot of christians claiming they are christian. I believe that until you have educated yourself in depth on several religions, but claim membership of one faith, then you are blindly following that faith. Well, my explanation didn't come out right, but like, many christians believe their god is the ONLY possible god, and that their particular way of worshiping that god is the only proper way to do so. This in turn means they have not found purpose of religion, or rather, ummm... meaning? ... to why they believe what they believe. Like, they just believe because they were told to. Well, why? I don't understand. This is why I'm thankful I didn't talk with a christian. Because they would have told me something like if I strayed from the christian ways, I was handing my soul to the devil. I'ma take a look at that link =3 -edit- wow... I haven't researched Einstein very much, but he sounds like a very deep person with a lot of want to understand things before following them. I like the part where he said he alone was a deeply religious man in that sense. that was amazing. I can get any one side I want XD but once I get that side, I mess it up trying to get another. But yeah, my friend... no matter how much I mixed up a cube, he solved it in under a minute. We would do it at lunch at school XD He'd have a circle of people watching him. It was amazing.
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:51 pm
I don't remember where I heard it, but I thought so too. Now... let's take the reverse.... The less you've learned/know, the more you think you know. Aha! Explains everything xD
Or, for every question you answer, 3 more take it's place.
I've come to find out that religions seem to be all about blindly believing. That's exactly how the Jehovah Witnesses are. They are not allowed to read books or anything that contain magic(because it opens you up to possibly be possessed by a demon), they used to not be allowed to go to college, and studying other religions? Oh no. No no no. Very very bad. BIG no no.
But hasn't that how things have been for so long? Kings would not want their subjects to be well educated because then they might question his rule.
I think that's so wrong, but it's also how things have worked for so long. Knowledge is power, and the powerful control the weak, therefore the weak must stay weak so that they powerful will stay powerful. Lemme quote the incredibles here "if everyone is special, than no one is special."
Heh, it took my about two minutes to look that up lol, he popped into my head and I merely googled the question I made the link too xD
I love that!! You say "Ima" too! I've been doing that for a few weeks now where I often say Ima, instead of I'm going to, and some other combos lo
Well... if I mess with the rubix cube a little more I'm sure I'll get that one side, there was only one left and I just got it last night. But beyond that.... yeah, I doubt it.
Wish I was that good....!
**EDIT! Oh yeah! And the part about being agnostic for 4 years without realizing it... makes perfect sense to me lol. I probably was for about 2-3 years before I knew. I didn't even know what the word "agnostic" meant until my friend on here started explaining it to me a couple months ago. When she did I was like, OH! THAT'S ME!
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:24 pm
Omg A Name
I don't remember where I heard it, but I thought so too. Now... let's take the reverse.... The less you've learned/know, the more you think you know. Aha! Explains everything xD
Or, for every question you answer, 3 more take it's place.
I've come to find out that religions seem to be all about blindly believing. That's exactly how the Jehovah Witnesses are. They are not allowed to read books or anything that contain magic(because it opens you up to possibly be possessed by a demon), they used to not be allowed to go to college, and studying other religions? Oh no. No no no. Very very bad. BIG no no.
But hasn't that how things have been for so long? Kings would not want their subjects to be well educated because then they might question his rule.
I think that's so wrong, but it's also how things have worked for so long. Knowledge is power, and the powerful control the weak, therefore the weak must stay weak so that they powerful will stay powerful. Lemme quote the incredibles here "if everyone is special, than no one is special."
Heh, it took my about two minutes to look that up lol, he popped into my head and I merely googled the question I made the link too xD
I love that!! You say "Ima" too! I've been doing that for a few weeks now where I often say Ima, instead of I'm going to, and some other combos lo
Well... if I mess with the rubix cube a little more I'm sure I'll get that one side, there was only one left and I just got it last night. But beyond that.... yeah, I doubt it.
Wish I was that good....!
**EDIT! Oh yeah! And the part about being agnostic for 4 years without realizing it... makes perfect sense to me lol. I probably was for about 2-3 years before I knew. I didn't even know what the word "agnostic" meant until my friend on here started explaining it to me a couple months ago. When she did I was like, OH! THAT'S ME!
Haha, I think it is wrong to blindly believe, because if you blindly believe then how can you say you truly believe? Take a christian that followed their beliefs yet open mindedly study other religions. They become more educated and if they still hold their beliefs, then they will have stronger beliefs than a christian who did not study other religions... or maybe not stronger, but more honest and educated beliefs in their religion. Its so true. for every question you answer three more take its place. That is amazing. And of course I say I'ma XD it's so much faster XD actually XD he went online and memorized the steps for solving a rubix cube (my boyfriend's brother did this too)... I tried, but only got as far as one side before I got completely lost XD
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:39 pm
Exactly. But see... your one of the people already questioning everything. Of course you don't think blindly believing is right xD
I don't remember where I said it, here somewhere, but I spoke of an interesting convo I had with a Christian girl in my child development class sometimes last week.
She rededicated herself to God two years ago and is a very nice, accepting person. You can talk to her about other religions, or lack of, as I did then, and she doesn't get all super defensive. She is the type of person that will not only say how you should act, but only to those that don't mind hearing it, and act that way herself. Practice what you preach.
She is happy with her beliefs and said that she has met a lot of very nice people in her youth groups and has no regrets in her decision. Meaning she actually made the decision herself, no one else made her.
Even if she was wrong about all of her religious beliefs, she will have lived a good life, if she continues as she is.
Don't think I have ever met a more genuine Christian(or religious person in general) in my life.
Ooo!!! I will likely get lost too, but ima try that!!! >3
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:44 pm
Omg A Name
Exactly. But see... your one of the people already questioning everything. Of course you don't think blindly believing is right xD
I don't remember where I said it, here somewhere, but I spoke of an interesting convo I had with a Christian girl in my child development class sometimes last week.
She rededicated herself to God two years ago and is a very nice, accepting person. You can talk to her about other religions, or lack of, as I did then, and she doesn't get all super defensive. She is the type of person that will not only say how you should act, but only to those that don't mind hearing it, and act that way herself. Practice what you preach.
She is happy with her beliefs and said that she has met a lot of very nice people in her youth groups and has no regrets in her decision. Meaning she actually made the decision herself, no one else made her.
Even if she was wrong about all of her religious beliefs, she will have lived a good life, if she continues as she is.
Don't think I have ever met a more genuine Christian(or religious person in general) in my life.
Ooo!!! I will likely get lost too, but ima try that!!! >3
If there is a Christian God, he'd be more pleased with a Christian like her, then he would the majority of his followers. After all, his word says to love everyone and turn the other cheek. >3 good luck with the cube of frustration.
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