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 Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:39 am
Over Yom Kippor, I made a discovery. Well it wasn't so much a discovery as the Temple's Congregation President gave a speech talking about how she has been a Jew over 10 years now and is proud to be the Congregation's president.
Mind you, she's in her mid 40s.
During her speech she mentioned that the temple's congregation was no longer exclusively made of Jews. That being a progressive temple, they allowed converting Jews full status in the congregation and acknowledged their children as being born Jewish, even as the parents were still in mid conversion.
This lead to Jewish kids with parents who were not.
My mother, being an old New York Jew then decided to mention after the service how... to quote her directly. "This s**t wouldn't fly in Manhattan." In reference to having a converted Jew be president of a congregation.
But would it not?
Judaism over the past three decades or so has been quietly killing itself to prevent it becoming what it has never been. Open, Inclusive and having a place for women and homosexuals in the religious and administrative structure of the temple.
What did I mean by killing itself? I mean that if both parents were not Jewish, then neither were the kids. In traditional practice you had to go all the way or it just didn't count. If you did not keep Kosher then you weren't practicing, if you didn't know Hebrew then you weren't praying. Judaism has always had a concept of "We do it our way, because we are not like the rest of the Goyim," and for converts, it was tougher to be accepted in a Jewish Congregation than it was to get your kids in a New York City Pre-School.
Now it seems we have entered a new age of Judaism. We have been there for a while. I'm actually happy to see it come about this way. I know several members of the guild who I consider Jewish even though they don't consider themselves Jewish.
I think we may be entering an age when it's hip to be Jewish, that there may be a radical shift in how people practice, well beyond the orange on the Seder plate and Tallit for women.
I think we are entering an age, when Converting Jews are treated as equals.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:51 am
I'll start by commenting where your observations are just wrong.
1. There is no reason a convert couldn't lead a shul. Ever hear of Rabbi Akiva? Considered one of the greatest Rabbi's in jewish history and in fact a convert. I'm sorry I'm sure your mother is a wonderful woman but it doesn't make her an expert.
2. Jewdiasm shouldn't be looking to be inclusive as an inherent aspect of jewdiasm has always been NOT to look for converts. Rashi and many others comment often how converts are a double edged sword that hurts the religion. (Double edged in that many don't stay religious, which hurts the religion as whole, or they make other jews feel inadequate as the converts are better then the "born" jews.)
3. A child who's parents convert must also convert at the age of 13 for boys and 12 for girls. It can be a slightly different process depending on the age at which the parents converted but it is a complicated area where I claim no expertise.
4. Jewdiasm follows the mother and always has (technically possibly only since Sinai but that was part of the debate between yosef and his brothers)
5. The Shulchan Orech is specific, Conversion is in fact an all or nothing concept. Again, Jewdiasm isn't supposed to look for converts. Why would we care if its "hip". Jewdiasm isn't intended to be cool. It's the life your born into and blessed with, not to mention obligated until your death.
6. Again converts should always be treated as equals. Sadly thats an issue with human nature not any particular religion.
Regarding women in Jewdiasm. Women are put on a pedestal quite often in Jewish history. Every prophetess is remembered by name. The Shemonah Esrei, possibly the main aspect of prayer, was first recited by a woman. I hate it when people say "oh well eve was bad in the bible therefor the bible says women are evil" they clearly didn't study the old testament in any way, or study jewish law in which women have many powers that exceed their husband (especially everything related to sex, a man can't touch his wife without her permission)
I've had this argument before but as much as anyone can choose their own life and god judges not humans, check the Gemarah Nedarim 51a for the in depth argument about homosexuality, or open a Kitzer Shulchan Aruch
I'm not claiming I'm a good person I never did, but why would you want your religion to become "popular." It's the inherent way of humanity that trends rise and fall. If jewdiasm is to be taken seriously its something your children will be blessed with being a part of. Do you really want to be part of something you lose interest in when its no longer "hip"?
For the record I am an FFB 4th generation American jew who just believes each of us should simply try to improve a little bit each day. Non-jews were the reason Joshua held up the sun, if they keep the seven noachide laws they should be respected and treated virtually as well as any jew you meet. Many of my friends aren't jewish and I wouldn't dream of trying to convert them. In fact (as jewish laws recommends) I discourage them. I have two friends who became geyoress (no idea on the spelling) and I treat them with as much respect as my jewish friends.
Feel free to discount everything I say, its human nature.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:03 am
I have to admit, I view that as offensive. To say that a child is born Jewish when its parents aren't (yet) Jews means that the parents are already Jewish even though they haven't finished conversion.
It sounds welcoming and inclusive to those in the process of conversion. But what it really means is, to a convert who has spent possibly years learning, soul-searching, studying, absorbing Judaism, "Your conversion means nothing. You did it for nothing. It didn't matter in the least." It may be inclusive and welcoming to those in the process of conversion, but to those who have completed conversion it's a kick in the face.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:26 pm
ScionoftheBlade I'll start by commenting where your observations are just wrong. 1. There is no reason a convert couldn't lead a shul. Ever hear of Rabbi Akiva? Considered one of the greatest Rabbi's in jewish history and in fact a convert. I'm sorry I'm sure your mother is a wonderful woman but it doesn't make her an expert. 2. Jewdiasm shouldn't be looking to be inclusive as an inherent aspect of jewdiasm has always been NOT to look for converts. Rashi and many others comment often how converts are a double edged sword that hurts the religion. (Double edged in that many don't stay religious, which hurts the religion as whole, or they make other jews feel inadequate as the converts are better then the "born" jews.) 3. A child who's parents convert must also convert at the age of 13 for boys and 12 for girls. It can be a slightly different process depending on the age at which the parents converted but it is a complicated area where I claim no expertise. 4. Jewdiasm follows the mother and always has (technically possibly only since Sinai but that was part of the debate between yosef and his brothers) 5. The Shulchan Orech is specific, Conversion is in fact an all or nothing concept. Again, Jewdiasm isn't supposed to look for converts. Why would we care if its "hip". Jewdiasm isn't intended to be cool. It's the life your born into and blessed with, not to mention obligated until your death. 6. Again converts should always be treated as equals. Sadly thats an issue with human nature not any particular religion. Regarding women in Jewdiasm. Women are put on a pedestal quite often in Jewish history. Every prophetess is remembered by name. The Shemonah Esrei, possibly the main aspect of prayer, was first recited by a woman. I hate it when people say "oh well eve was bad in the bible therefor the bible says women are evil" they clearly didn't study the old testament in any way, or study jewish law in which women have many powers that exceed their husband (especially everything related to sex, a man can't touch his wife without her permission) I've had this argument before but as much as anyone can choose their own life and god judges not humans, check the Gemarah Nedarim 51a for the in depth argument about homosexuality, or open a Kitzer Shulchan Aruch I'm not claiming I'm a good person I never did, but why would you want your religion to become "popular." It's the inherent way of humanity that trends rise and fall. If jewdiasm is to be taken seriously its something your children will be blessed with being a part of. Do you really want to be part of something you lose interest in when its no longer "hip"? For the record I am an FFB 4th generation American jew who just believes each of us should simply try to improve a little bit each day. Non-jews were the reason Joshua held up the sun, if they keep the seven noachide laws they should be respected and treated virtually as well as any jew you meet. Many of my friends aren't jewish and I wouldn't dream of trying to convert them. In fact (as jewish laws recommends) I discourage them. I have two friends who became geyoress (no idea on the spelling) and I treat them with as much respect as my jewish friends. Feel free to discount everything I say, its human nature. JUDASIM. NOT JEWDIASM.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:43 pm
I keep wondering why firefox gives me little red lines under the word... Someday I'll actually remember that. Seriously I will.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:04 pm
ScionoftheBlade I keep wondering why firefox gives me little red lines under the word... Someday I'll actually remember that. Seriously I will. How can you not know that?
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:05 pm
Seriously, though; It's Judasim.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:09 pm
Lumanny the Space Jew Seriously, though; It's Judasim. You sure you don't mean Judaism?
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:22 pm
ScionoftheBlade Lumanny the Space Jew Seriously, though; It's Judasim. You sure you don't mean Judaism? I can't type. Carry on with the topic..
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:38 pm
Oh boys... whee
To convert to Judaism is no easy task and it shouldn't be! It should be a test of your character and how committed you are to your faith. If we didn't sometimes have to face the cold shoulder of the Jewish community, we might not truly understand our sincerity and how far we are willing to go to be treated as Jewish equals.
That being said I think it's a good thing that a congregation would appoint a convert to be an official member but to consider a person who is in the process of converting and their children to be essentially born Jews kinda takes away from the experiencing of converting.
Then again, I've always believed that Jewish souls come in many forms...
I dunno, it's complicated.
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Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:02 pm
Here's a related-ish subject...
Behatz is a Bris'd, Bar Mitzvah'd, studious lad who grew up educating himself in the religion he belongs to. He has fasted on Yom Kippur, daven'd in shul and felt the pains and joys of being Jewish. However, now there is a question on his mind...
Should he convert to Judaism?
I don't have a Jewish mother, which has lead to some... interesting... conversations over the last few days as I made it a resolution of mine to become fully observant. That means I would keep to Shabbat, wear a yarmulka, keep kosher, recite the Shema twice a day, the lot.
And then I got told by my father that I was a hypocrite and not a real Jew. Because of my blood. And I can't help but think - have we learnt nothing in the last 60 years that we still believe that Jewishness is passed through genetics? Through blood??
Therefore, if this is what it takes for someone who has lived their entire life as a Jew to be accepted into the Jewish community, I will convert in an Orthodox shul.
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Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:26 am
Behatz, you don't have to convert to be accepted in the Jewish community. Observant B'nei Noach (non-Jews who follow Jewish law as it relates to non-Jews) are absolutely welcomed, encouraged, and treasured. You do have to convert to be a Jew, and to be accepted as a Jew.
A person is born with a soul. A Jewish person also has an additional soul that descends for the duration of Shabbat and Yom Tov. A convert is born with that additional soul, but it does not descend until conversion is complete (some say within the depths of the mikvah, some say not until the Shabbat that comes after conversion-immersion). You need conversion to 'awaken' your Jewish soul fully. As beautiful and enriching as Shabbat is now, imagine how it will feel when both your souls are fully awake and engaged in it!
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:21 pm
See here's the thing.
I don't consider the B'nei Noach to be Jewish Wanna-bes
I consider them Jewish and as equals.
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Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:58 pm
Divash Behatz, you don't have to convert to be accepted in the Jewish community. Observant B'nei Noach (non-Jews who follow Jewish law as it relates to non-Jews) are absolutely welcomed, encouraged, and treasured. You do have to convert to be a Jew, and to be accepted as a Jew. A person is born with a soul. A Jewish person also has an additional soul that descends for the duration of Shabbat and Yom Tov. A convert is born with that additional soul, but it does not descend until conversion is complete (some say within the depths of the mikvah, some say not until the Shabbat that comes after conversion-immersion). You need conversion to 'awaken' your Jewish soul fully. As beautiful and enriching as Shabbat is now, imagine how it will feel when both your souls are fully awake and engaged in it! You see, the thing is, Divash, is that I've just lived between 15-20 (internet safety right there!) years of my life calling myself a Jew, believing it all, praying to Hashem, trying to stay kosher when possible, going to shul... and now I feel like that's been ripped from me and I don't have a religion any more. I have faith, sure. I still believe. But suddenly I've realised that even my own dad doesn't think I'm Jewish. Now, instead of being the full thing, I'm B'nei Noach? Was my soul even at Mount Sinai?? Am I meant to be a Jew, or is this a big wake up call?? Pardon me French, but what the f*ck am I?
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Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:52 pm
LordNeuf See here's the thing. I don't consider the B'nei Noach to be Jewish Wanna-bes I consider them Jewish and as equals. Bnei Noach isn't a Jewish wannabe. Its a non-jew who follows the actual old testament. @Behatzlachah- Congratulations you are going through what an adopted child does when they discover they are adopted. The psychological issues your going through happen to be related to a jewish experience for you, it isn't the fault of Judaism (I spelled it right!!!). You have to decide if you want to be jewish or not. Its not a decision you should take lightly, however as you've said you feel like your already there.
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Reply
