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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:33 am
Many Christians say it is inerrant, but is that really a fact? Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to prove the Bible is not the Word of God, but I am telling you that it is not perfect as most Christians claim.
Yes, the authors of the Bible were divinely inspired, nevertheless, they are still human, therefore they are imperfect. Some of you would say, divinely inspired would mean God controlled these writers, that might be true, but I doubt that it is God's way of delivering his message to us.
Here are some examples of Biblical contradictions, there are only minor mistakes, but they are still mistakes after all, however, these type of contradictions are not fatal, they are only mistakes on detail. IF it says that Jesus was human, that is the one that should be taken notice.
(Matthew 8:13 & 8:14) Jesus healed the leper before visiting the house. (Mark 1:29-30 & 1:40-42) Jesus healed the leper after visiting Simon Peter’s house.
Who approached Jesus? (Matthew 8:5-7) The Centurion approached Jesus, beseeching help for a sick servant. (Luke 7:3 & 7:6-7) The Centurion did not approach Jesus. He sent friends and elders of the Jews.
Was she dead or just dying? (Matthew 9:1 cool He asked for help, saying his daughter was already dead. (Luke 8:41-42) Jairus approached Jesus for help, because his daughter was dying.
Any comments or objections? Post it here
I am suggesting that we should make a subforum for the Bible, that is what we should be aware of.
God bless us all, Zarfione
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:45 pm
Zarfione Many Christians say it is inerrant, but is that really a fact? The original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic are inspired, not necessarily the English translations.Zarfione Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to prove the Bible is not the Word of God, but I am telling you that it is not perfect as most Christians claim. Any errors found in Scripture are often read into the text or misunderstood and don't actually appear when you read the texts as they were meant to be communicated. Reading things into the text is called eisegesis, reading the text for what it says is called exegesis. If one is to be intellectually honest, one must read the text for what it says within its original context.Zarfione Yes, the authors of the Bible were divinely inspired, nevertheless, they are still human, therefore they are imperfect. Some of you would say, divinely inspired would mean God controlled these writers, that might be true, but I doubt that it is God's way of delivering his message to us. I doubt that God would allow His Word (in the original language) to be corrupted by Man's mistakes and wouldn't let the writer know that he erred in his writings and make him fix it. I don't believe the writers would have erred in their writings when they're being led by the perfect Holy Spirit, anyway.Zarfione Here are some examples of Biblical contradictions, there are only minor mistakes, but they are still mistakes after all, however, these type of contradictions are not fatal, they are only mistakes on detail. Contradictions appear in a few ways: #1. Misreading/misunderstanding the text. #2. Taking things out of context. #3. Forcing things into the text (eisegesis). #4. Lost in translationZarfione IF it says that Jesus was human, that is the one that should be taken notice. Jesus was human. Completely human and completely God. He was God in the Flesh. The issue of it being 'bad' only comes up if the Bible ever said that He was only man and not God (which doesn't happen regardless of how many Muslims take verses out of context and play mind games with people).Zarfione (Matthew 8:13 & 8:14) Jesus healed the leper before visiting the house. (Mark 1:29-30 & 1:40-42) Jesus healed the leper after visiting Simon Peter’s house. You quoted the wrong verses in Matthew here, but regardless, Matthew uses loose language (i.e., when they came down from the mountain, when Jesus entered Peter’s house, etc.) and doesn't intend to be a Chronological timeline, but rather thematic; whereas Mark uses explicit language and is Chronological and meant to be placed in order (i.e., and immediately he left, rising early in the morning, etc).This is an example of misunderstanding the text.Zarfione Who approached Jesus? (Matthew 8:5-7) The Centurion approached Jesus, beseeching help for a sick servant. (Luke 7:3 & 7:6-7) The Centurion did not approach Jesus. He sent friends and elders of the Jews. "Understand that all the writers agree in essence and differ only in details. This is especially important in studying the Gospels. Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10 both record Christ's healing of the centurion's servant. A contradiction is removed if we understand that the centurion may well have come to Jesus once he saw Him arrive outside his house. Luke records that arrival."[1]This is an example of taking things out of context.Zarfione Was she dead or just dying? (Matthew 9:1 cool He asked for help, saying his daughter was already dead. (Luke 8:41-42) Jairus approached Jesus for help, because his daughter was dying. "To see a contradiction here is anachronistically to impose on an ancient text modern standards of precision in storytelling. What is more, in a world without modern medical monitors to establish the precise moment of expiry, there is not nearly so much difference between Matthew's arti eteleutesn in v. 18 (which could fairly be translated "just came to the point of death"; cf. Heb. 11:22) and eschates echer in Mark 5:23 (which could also be rendered "is dying")."[2]May I also note the following:Luke 8:41-42 (New American Standard Bible) 41And there came a man named Jairus, and he was an official of the synagogue; and he fell at Jesus' feet, and began to implore Him to come to his house; 42for he had an only daughter, about twelve years old, and she was dying. But as He went, the crowds were pressing against Him. Matthew 9:18 (New American Standard Bible) 18While He was saying these things to them, a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, "My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live." Notice that in Luke, Luke himself is telling the reader that the man's daughter is dying, while in Matthew, the man is actually quoted saying "My daughter has just died." That doesn't mean Luke is wrong, but rather that Jairus is likely mistaken and thought his daughter was dead already or assumed that she would already be dead before reaching Jesus. There's no actual contradiction here.Zarfione Any comments or objections? Post it here Already done. I hope you understand that the Word of God is indeed inerrant when read in context. As the Apologist Greg Koukl once said, "Never read a Bible verse, read a paragraph at least." That way you can usually understand the context in which it the text is written. I don't mean to be offensive in any of my statements in this post, so please don't take anything I say here that way. I just have a...tone in my typing, I suppose.Zarfione I am suggesting that we should make a subforum for the Bible, that is what we should be aware of. We have to solve our missing captain issue before we can do that, unfortunately.Zarfione God bless us all, Zarfione God bless, Spike Zantren
P.S. On a final note, we already have a contradictions thread that was made not too long ago, so you probably should have posted it there instead of making a new topic.
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:08 am
I was trying to say that if Jesus was ONLY human and not God as well.Sorry about that, I have the habit of forgetting to specify other details. Differ in details, it is still a mistake/contradiction, therefore the Bible is errant. There is no corruption by humans in the meaning of the Bible(if one understands it perfectly), the details are the ones that corrupted.
As for the thread, I did not see it, I apologize for my mistake
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:40 pm
To the thread title: Yes. [/thread]
If you think there are mistakes in the Bible, exactly which parts are you going to say are true? Creation? Jesus' life? Jesus' death? His resurection?
Either it's all true or it's not.
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:33 pm
Zarfione Differ in details, it is still a mistake/contradiction, therefore the Bible is errant. Example #1: I sneezed, then I wiped my nose on my shirt. During that day I also tripped over a rock.
Example #2: Today I tripped over a stone and wiped my nose on my shirt after I had sneezed and took a tissue and blew my nose.
This is a differ in details, but it's clearly not a contradiction or mistake. In the same sense, the passages you've claimed as support of errancy are not contradictory at all, regardless of what you read into the text. Differences in details do not inherently mean a contradiction, only that one account expands upon other details while the other does not, or it explains it in a different manner. These are not errors, and likewise, the Bible is not errant or contradictory, in the big picture or in details when read with a proper exegesis.
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:50 pm
I can see how these mistakes could be made. I don't have an original literal translation, but i would say that they are possibly incorrect or changed translations. The other way I can think of explaining it is that the authors were writing from memory or second0handed and messed up. Very, very human errs. ninja
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:48 pm
Who was the father of Joseph? Matthew 1:16 The father of Joseph was Jacob. Luke 3 :23 The father of Joseph was Heli.
How many generations were there from the Babylon captivity to Christ? Matthew 1:17 Fourteen generations Matthew 1:12-16 Thirteen generations.
Now, does this seem not contradicting to you, Spike? ( I am not trying to provoke you)
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:24 am
Zarfione Who was the father of Joseph? Matthew 1:16 The father of Joseph was Jacob. Luke 3 :23 The father of Joseph was Heli. * Jacob
Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
* Heli
Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
Because of the Jewish Levirite laws, both are correct, but in different ways. In Jewish law, if a man died childless, his brother was to marry the widow, and the first son born would legally be the dead man's heir (Deuteronomy 25:5-6). In the story of Ruth, we see that this was not limited to brothers; the nearest male relative willing to take on the responsibility would marry the widow.Zarfione How many generations were there from the Babylon captivity to Christ? Matthew 1:17 Fourteen generations Matthew 1:12-16 Thirteen generations. Matthew 1:12-17 (New American Standard Bible) 12After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel was the father of Abihud, Abihud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor. Azor was the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud. Eliud was the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob. Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations. 1) Jeconiah 2) Shealtiel, 3) Zerubbabel, 4) Abiud, 5) Eliakim, 6) Azor, 7) Zadok, 8 ) Akim, 9) Eliud, 10) Eleazar, 11) Matthan, 12) Jacob, 13) Joseph 14) Jesus
It seems at this point you're either being deceptive, ignorant and/or you're merely copy/pasting supposed contradictions from a website that doesn't even understand what they're reading. I sincerely hope it's only the second one. This is truly grasping at straws and there are absolutely no contradictions in these verses as you seem to imply.Zarfione Now, does this seem not contradicting to you, Spike? ( I am not trying to provoke you) Someone who does not actually go back and read the verses may think it seems like a contradiction, but when you actually read the texts and read them, as I've been saying, within their original context, then supposed contradictions evaporate. The Bible, when read in its original context, is inerrant. There are no contradictions in the Scriptures unless those contradictions are read into the text eisegetically. I pray that you understand this and take the time to re-read those scriptures in context before pasting another 'contradiction'.
I don't mean for this to be an insult to your intelligence, just a reminder that you need to read the Bible and never just take anybody's word for what lies within the Scriptures.
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:08 pm
Let me just input something. Christians have been proclaiming that the Bible is inerrant for decades. If there was a single bit of solid proof to the contrary, then we would have been tossed to the side as liars with flawed doctrine a long time ago. My point is this: If there were and errs in the Bible, they would have been found a long, long time ago. dramallama
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Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:10 pm
Spike, I think you are correct, I was looking for someone to convince me that the Bible is inerrant. Your deductions are perfect as well, I was copying and pasting at a site that is against the Bible- no, I do not share their beliefs, only I believed that the Bible is errant. Their proofs seem very convincing, but they only showed seemingly contradicting statements. Except that they missed out facts that you showed me. The authors of the Gospel did not put the exact time, and may have written it immediately, then saw that another thing happened. Like in story the centurion, his friends may have come first, and the centurion second, or vise versa. Both authors have written facts like these and only the first or the second event that happened without writing the other one.
Thank you, that you have reminded me to read my Bible and understand its message. It was due to my laziness that I did not find those lines that seem contradictory myself sweatdrop
You have also reminded me to listen to both sides, that I might understand things better.
God bless us all, Zarfione
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Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:47 pm
lol, Spike is our friendly-but-intimidating local advocate and Bible-toter pirate
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:29 am
Haven923 lol, Spike is our friendly-but-intimidating local advocate and Bible-toter pirate rofl Sigquote, Spike?
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:43 am
I start feeling awkward when people talk about me. sweatdrop Though why not?
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:13 pm
Spike, I think you should learn to speak politically correct(no offence, not because I was intimidated by your words( I am used to that, my bro talks to me like that biggrin ), but for the atheists, Mormons etc.
Many unbelievers today who try to seek the LORD or research on it(due to some sort inspiration) are turned off due to the tongues of the Christians. Remember, sharpen your faith, not your tongues.
About the Bible, do you think I should use the KJV Bible or NASB? Because modern translations omit some words like Godhead, sinners etc.
God bless you, Zarfione
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:44 pm
You know, I know how to speak politically correct, and I would speak more politically correct if I didn't hate political correctness so much. Honestly, sugarcoating my words doesn't work for me. Not only does my personality not allow it, but using politically-correct language really de-emphasizes what I want to say most of the time. I think there's a little too much political correctness and frankly I don't like it. I'd rather be called a fundamentalist nutjob and let people speak what's really on their mind so I can address it than be called a Christian and then grouped into a whole host of other 'groups' of Christianity which I find heretical and wouldn't catch myself dead in.
In my experience, people tend to enjoy debating with me on issues because I don't appeal to someone's emotions. I like to stick to the facts and produce it bluntly so people don't get the wrong impression. I've seen so many people use politically correct language and all it did was make the seeking person feel okay about themselves rather than address the issue and actually discuss it, or they thought it was an issue that just wasn't that important, so it didn't really help at all. I can be nicer; it's just that usually when I type with a tone, it's because I'm stressed (and for a while now, that's been an ongoing thing). I suppose I could try harder.
As for the KJV/NASB thing, I'm a former King James Onlyist, so hopefully I can help a little bit on that issue.
A common tactic by King James Onlyists is to present a list of changes in modern translations, but rather than using the manuscripts as the base, they use the King James Bible, so there's a bit of deception that even some honest people fall into. I prefer the NASB though I still enjoy the KJV. The NASB is a word-for-word translation of the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts so I prefer it, but I appreciate the KJV for its artistic language which inspired a huge amount of modern language we use today (frequently without even realizing it) and it's also public domain, so you can quote it as much as you want without worrying about any copyrights.
Ultimately, the choice is up to you. There are some bad translations (like those forwarded by the Roman Catholic Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses' translation), but the KJV, NASB and a couple others are good, in my opinion.
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