is this guild still claiming civil and tolerant discussions?

[Shiori Miko]

Chieftain Twilight

honestly, i don't think it's any matter of tolerance. that goes all into the what's right and what's wrong deal, which i realy don't believe in, at all.

it doens't exist. there are no rights, no good and evil, no right and wrong. nobody has any "right" to do anything.

For this, I love you.

I actually read a novel that had a great villian. My favorite thing about the villian, he thought he was doing a good thing. This guy was incredibly evil. He killed, he manipulated but he thought he was helping humanity become a better place.

Ever since I read that book series, I don't believe in right and wrong. Everyone believes they're right, even murderers.

The series is called Pendragon if you wanna look it up.  

[A1Saucy]

alteregoivy

4shi

Chieftain Twilight

rape probably wouldn't be so traumatizing if it were an acceptable practice, but if it were an acceptble practice that would say a awful lot for how poor a society that would be.

"Rape" that's accepted is consentual sex, not rape. Even if we go by the older definition of the word, which means theft (hence the poem "The Rape of the Lock" and its double entendre), it still implies the lack of consent.

*finishes poking holes*

I think Chieftain maybe meant if rape weren't punished in a society. If the woman doesn't consent, it's still rape. But if the man isn't punished for it, if no one cares, then what else could you say but to assume that it's an accepted practice?

I'll let him explain it, but if even one person doesn't consent can you say it's an accepted practice?  

[ncsweet]

4shi

I'll let him explain it, but if even one person doesn't consent can you say it's an accepted practice?

There are lots of things that people don't consent to, that are acceptable practices. There are quite a few people who think that killing animals is abhorrent and will not consent to eat any part of an animal - however in most parts of the world it is an acceptable practice do to so.

I'm sure any number of kids will tell you that they don't consent to going to school, but are forced to go every day because it is an accepted practice to do so.

In some Hindu communities, at one point it was an accepted practice for a widow to be burned on her husband's funeral pyre. This was done with or without their consent.  

[A1Saucy]

ncsweet

4shi

I'll let him explain it, but if even one person doesn't consent can you say it's an accepted practice?

There are lots of things that people don't consent to, that are acceptable practices. There are quite a few people who think that killing animals is abhorrent and will not consent to eat any part of an animal - however in most parts of the world it is an acceptable practice do to so.

I'm sure any number of kids will tell you that they don't consent to going to school, but are forced to go every day because it is an accepted practice to do so.

In some Hindu communities, at one point it was an accepted practice for a widow to be burned on her husband's funeral pyre. This was done with or without their consent.

Hence, different societies. My thing is with that type of argument emerges from a remark about "society in general". This is problematic because it doesn't define whose society. To me, anyway, it's a generalization without clear definition.

Clarification (because what I said is clear as mud when I re-read it): Without a context as to why something is or isn't okay one can't say whether or not something is rape. If there are people who object to such a practice, even if they are in the minority, it implies there is context for the society to not accept it.  

[Nines19]

Shiori Miko

Ever since I read that book series, I don't believe in right and wrong. Everyone believes they're right, even murderers.

I disagree. Some people know very well that what they're doing is wrong - in some cases, that's the entire thrill of it.

I personally would not advise getting beliefs about reality and how real people operate from fiction books (fantasy fiction, no less), but maybe that's just me.  

[Tirissana]

Nines19

Shiori Miko

Ever since I read that book series, I don't believe in right and wrong. Everyone believes they're right, even murderers.

I disagree. Some people know very well that what they're doing is wrong - in some cases, that's the entire thrill of it.

I personally would not advise getting beliefs about reality and how real people operate from fiction books (fantasy fiction, no less), but maybe that's just me.

Tell that to the people who use 1984 and claim that Germany has "thought crimes". neutral

It depends entirely on the culture the people are in, and within their soceity. In America's culture doing certain things like polygamy, polyamory is wrong. However in places like Tibet for example polygyny is acceptable.

How we view someone's culture is going to be different than the person next to us. Our views as well as other people's within that culture is going to be subjective. They are going to be differing.  

[Shiori Miko]

Nines19

Shiori Miko

Ever since I read that book series, I don't believe in right and wrong. Everyone believes they're right, even murderers.

I disagree. Some people know very well that what they're doing is wrong - in some cases, that's the entire thrill of it.

I personally would not advise getting beliefs about reality and how real people operate from fiction books (fantasy fiction, no less), but maybe that's just me.

Was there people who believed the Holocaust was a good thing? Yep. They were getting rid of the "infestation." Same with Rwanada "exterimating the cockroaches" and the in Afganistan with the "flat-nosed" Hazaras.

I could say the same about the Bible, couldn't I? xp  

[xxEverBluexx]

Shiori Miko

Chieftain Twilight

honestly, i don't think it's any matter of tolerance. that goes all into the what's right and what's wrong deal, which i realy don't believe in, at all.

it doens't exist. there are no rights, no good and evil, no right and wrong. nobody has any "right" to do anything.

For this, I love you.

I actually read a novel that had a great villian. My favorite thing about the villian, he thought he was doing a good thing. This guy was incredibly evil. He killed, he manipulated but he thought he was helping humanity become a better place.

Ever since I read that book series, I don't believe in right and wrong. Everyone believes they're right, even murderers.

The series is called Pendragon if you wanna look it up.

You read Pendragon? I heart that book. The ending was epic and completely unpredictable!

I disagree about there being no right and wrong though. Saint Dane was fictional, and if he was real, he probrably would've been a sociopath. People have good and evil to their nature, which results in people doing things that are good and bad. I think since the Lord sees all the things that can happen, He allows humans their free will, while still allowing certain bad things to happen because the good that results is greater (like the way it went with the Hindenburg in book 3).

And I don't really think you could say the same for the Bible, especially if you don't provide a more specific example. >.<

And Tsukiyo, I'm not sure it's completely the culture. That's a big influence, but there's evils that society sometimes encourages that wouldn't necassily be tolerated by a younger member. You know kids 3 and under usually hate lying, but over that age they become more adept at it?  

[Tirissana]

xxEternallyBluexx

Shiori Miko

Chieftain Twilight

honestly, i don't think it's any matter of tolerance. that goes all into the what's right and what's wrong deal, which i realy don't believe in, at all.

it doens't exist. there are no rights, no good and evil, no right and wrong. nobody has any "right" to do anything.

For this, I love you.

I actually read a novel that had a great villian. My favorite thing about the villian, he thought he was doing a good thing. This guy was incredibly evil. He killed, he manipulated but he thought he was helping humanity become a better place.

Ever since I read that book series, I don't believe in right and wrong. Everyone believes they're right, even murderers.

The series is called Pendragon if you wanna look it up.

You read Pendragon? I heart that book. The ending was epic and completely unpredictable!

I disagree about there being no right and wrong though. Saint Dane was fictional, and if he was real, he probrably would've been a sociopath. People have good and evil to their nature, which results in people doing things that are good and bad. I think since the Lord sees all the things that can happen, He allows humans their free will, while still allowing certain bad things to happen because the good that results is greater (like the way it went with the Hindenburg in book 3).

And I don't really think you could say the same for the Bible, especially if you don't provide a more specific example. >.<

And Tsukiyo, I'm not sure it's completely the culture. That's a big influence, but there's evils that society sometimes encourages that wouldn't necassily be tolerated by a younger member. You know kids 3 and under usually hate lying, but over that age they become more adept at it?

That's why I put within society as well. Within the different countries, each has a different societal view than our own. With older people, they think lying is bad and is immoral. With teenagers and young adults, we think lying is okay as long as no one gets hurt. We're taught to lie to our friends in order to preserve our friendships.

Though I believe in telling my friends the truth. If you're being an idiot, I will tell you that. However I will only lie to those I fear...  

[Shiori Miko]

xxEternallyBluexx

Shiori Miko

Chieftain Twilight

honestly, i don't think it's any matter of tolerance. that goes all into the what's right and what's wrong deal, which i realy don't believe in, at all.

it doens't exist. there are no rights, no good and evil, no right and wrong. nobody has any "right" to do anything.

For this, I love you.

I actually read a novel that had a great villian. My favorite thing about the villian, he thought he was doing a good thing. This guy was incredibly evil. He killed, he manipulated but he thought he was helping humanity become a better place.

Ever since I read that book series, I don't believe in right and wrong. Everyone believes they're right, even murderers.

The series is called Pendragon if you wanna look it up.

You read Pendragon? I heart that book. The ending was epic and completely unpredictable!

I disagree about there being no right and wrong though. Saint Dane was fictional, and if he was real, he probrably would've been a sociopath. People have good and evil to their nature, which results in people doing things that are good and bad. I think since the Lord sees all the things that can happen, He allows humans their free will, while still allowing certain bad things to happen because the good that results is greater (like the way it went with the Hindenburg in book 3).

And I don't really think you could say the same for the Bible, especially if you don't provide a more specific example. >.<

And Tsukiyo, I'm not sure it's completely the culture. That's a big influence, but there's evils that society sometimes encourages that wouldn't necassily be tolerated by a younger member. You know kids 3 and under usually hate lying, but over that age they become more adept at it?

I don't think Saint Dance really would be a sociopath. He knew what he was doing the entire time. He knew the effects of his actions would result in death but he believed those who died who would be martyrs for the greater good, the same reason Bobby had to allow the Hindenburg to crash. Both the hero and the villian allowed people to die for their cause. Both were working torward a "better world" but they just had different views on what that meant.  

[Illumina Vierge]

heart Okay, so I read everything everyone posted in this thread. When I started reading past page one I got very interested in everything. There's a lot of information here and a variety of notable references/opinions. I'll have to come back to this later and see what develops. smile heart  

[xxEverBluexx]

Shiori Miko

xxEternallyBluexx

Shiori Miko

Chieftain Twilight

honestly, i don't think it's any matter of tolerance. that goes all into the what's right and what's wrong deal, which i realy don't believe in, at all.

it doens't exist. there are no rights, no good and evil, no right and wrong. nobody has any "right" to do anything.

For this, I love you.

I actually read a novel that had a great villian. My favorite thing about the villian, he thought he was doing a good thing. This guy was incredibly evil. He killed, he manipulated but he thought he was helping humanity become a better place.

Ever since I read that book series, I don't believe in right and wrong. Everyone believes they're right, even murderers.

The series is called Pendragon if you wanna look it up.

You read Pendragon? I heart that book. The ending was epic and completely unpredictable!

I disagree about there being no right and wrong though. Saint Dane was fictional, and if he was real, he probrably would've been a sociopath. People have good and evil to their nature, which results in people doing things that are good and bad. I think since the Lord sees all the things that can happen, He allows humans their free will, while still allowing certain bad things to happen because the good that results is greater (like the way it went with the Hindenburg in book 3).

And I don't really think you could say the same for the Bible, especially if you don't provide a more specific example. >.<

And Tsukiyo, I'm not sure it's completely the culture. That's a big influence, but there's evils that society sometimes encourages that wouldn't necassily be tolerated by a younger member. You know kids 3 and under usually hate lying, but over that age they become more adept at it?

I don't think Saint Dance really would be a sociopath. He knew what he was doing the entire time. He knew the effects of his actions would result in death but he believed those who died who would be martyrs for the greater good, the same reason Bobby had to allow the Hindenburg to crash. Both the hero and the villian allowed people to die for their cause. Both were working torward a "better world" but they just had different views on what that meant.

He was still fictional. While the book makes good points about the duality of human nature, and so does the belief there is no good or evil, I still think there is a root good and a root evil. While you can find both good and bad in most things, I believe those things also have an innate nature that is either good or evil. Should it stop there I'd be a Dualist, but I'll go farther and say that because mankind strives to be good, it was good from which evil sprang, and that will eventually wipe it out.  

[alteregoivy]

I have to disagree on the whole "no right or wrong" thing. While there may be many discrepancies between moral practices in cultures, there are themes that come up again and again across cultures. The vast majority of cultures don't subscribe to the "every man for himself" attitude. There are rules of engagement across almost every culture as society across the globe has progressed.

Also, there is a reason the UN has come up with guidelines for basic human rights, and why violations are enforced regardless of culture. Admittedly, they haven't done a great job because the UN is slow and weak, but the universal guidelines are there.  

[CH1YO]

Semiremis

CH1YO

You should try being right and obstinate, I much prefer it to such nonsense as this.

Twilight should try to be right and stubborn?

Absolutely.  

[CH1YO]

alteregoivy

I have to disagree on the whole "no right or wrong" thing. While there may be many discrepancies between moral practices in cultures, there are themes that come up again and again across cultures. The vast majority of cultures don't subscribe to the "every man for himself" attitude. There are rules of engagement across almost every culture as society across the globe has progressed.

Also, there is a reason the UN has come up with guidelines for basic human rights, and why violations are enforced regardless of culture. Admittedly, they haven't done a great job because the UN is slow and weak, but the universal guidelines are there.

The best and most effective societies do emphasise the individual.

The U.N. isn't universal.