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 Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:25 pm
I seem to recall that in standard Christian theology, both faith and works are required, is that correct?
I was inspired to ask, would you believe, by a quote from Codex: Witch Hunters (I think), which says, "The words of the faithful are mountains; the deeds of the faithful are the world." It's attributed to Ecclesiarch Deacis VII if you feel like looking it up.
If you recall, I come from a religious background that says, as long as you don't reject the tenets of the faith - that there is Justice and a Judge - you are considered really only by your deeds, and especially the way your deeds affected other people. I'm looking from the outside in, as it were. So, did the creator of Deacis VII nail it for either Christendom, or your corner of it?
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:48 am
I've heard it argued that only faith is necessary and also that both are necessary. I find the former to be in contradiction with Scripture.
Jeremiah 7:9-11 NIV
Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, [a] burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, "We are safe"-safe to do all these detestable things?
I do believe that faith is the most necessary, and most important attribute - faith and love. Works will follow if these two are had.
John 14:15
If you love me, you will obey what I command.
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:31 am
Faith is necessary to do deeds because without faith, deeds mean nothing to oneself.
Deeds are necessary because they build and reinforce the faith because with out deeds, faith is meaningless and dead.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:40 am
The difference is recounted in the tale of two outwardly honest men. The first man would not steal, because he was afraid of being caught and punished.
He looked over his shoulder for God, and was in fear of judgment.
The second man would not steal, he would not even think of stealing, because it was no longer part of his nature. He had Christ within.
And so this is carried forward in outward good deeds also. The first man would do good deeds because he thought he should. The second man would do good deeds because they were now part of his nature.
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:56 pm
Reformed theology (Presbyterians, Baptists, German and Dutch Reformed and others) says "Sola Fide", meaning you are saved by faith alone. Paul says this somewhere, by grace you are saved by faith alone and not by works, lest any man should boast, or something like that.
And Luther says the same thing.
Wesley was irked at this, and what he saw (rightly, i deem) as a built in excuse for ruleb reaking, which he called "antinomialism".
it is either james or John who says "show me your works and then i will believe you have faith"; Jesus himself says "by their fruit ye shall know them" Mt. 7:16, and that seems to imply attention to works.
We mennonites put works ahead of faith, being practical people, and so we say we are not protestant because we disagree with Luther and Calvin.
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Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:55 am
chessiejo Reformed theology (Presbyterians, Baptists, German and Dutch Reformed and others) says "Sola Fide", meaning you are saved by faith alone. Paul says this somewhere, by grace you are saved by faith alone and not by works, lest any man should boast, or something like that. Interestingly enough, St. Paul does not use the words "faith alone". The "alone" was interpolated by Luther (he said that it was what St. Paul intended to say). In fact, the only place in Sacred Scripture that the phrase "faith alone" is used is by St. James in his letter, and it certainly does not say that man is saved by faith alone, rather that we are not.
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Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:05 am
here are a couple key verses from Ephesians 2, which in contect do seem to support the "sola fide" idea.
whether Paul wrote Ephesians i am not sure; i think Onessimus really wrote it. but anyway:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
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