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The religious right in america (which is an oxymoron, because they're neither religious, nor right.) has often chimed in on several political issues involving science and medicine.

However when it comes to the public health care option, they have been rather quiet about it.

What does everyone think about the concept of Socialized Healthcare?

I happen to be a capitalist and believe that the whole thing should be market driven save catastrophic financial hardships which is why health insurance was invented.

The problem with letting the marketplace take care of it is that the marketplace acts so predictably. The marketplace isn't God. It doesn't know what's best for the people. All it does is let everything flow where the money is.

I've seen this reality first hand. In several counties in the State of California, I've suffered failing health, I've been at death's door and I've sat in two different kinds of emergency room -- and the damned thing is that many of those emergency room trips could have been prevented.

Whatever you do, don't get sick in Contra Costa, California. Your chances of getting on MediCal are slim to none there. You'll either have to go to a private practice and eat the doctor bills all by yourself or shell out a comparable price for an insurance policy OTHER THAN the cheap State insurance policy.

If you go to the hospital (even the emergency room) and can't pay upfront, you're likely to get dumped on the street. Same with San Fransisco, for that matter, but I always was a little too lucky to get sick there, for what it's worth.

If you want to try to get any help -- like MediCal, food stamps, etc. in Contra Costa, don't do it in Richmond. People actually need it there. They'll hand you a little questionnaire to determine how dire your situation is and, when it gets returned to you to sign, you'll find that your answers will have been changed to something much, much nicer.

If you have to be sick or hungry, do it in San Mateo County. No, not SOUTH San Mateo -- too many people there need help. Do it in the wealthy part of the county, where it's assumed that the people on food stamps and MediCal are licking a rich person's boots for a living. If you live in that part of the county, you're living in a million dollar house or paying very high rent if you aren't living under a bridge.

Now, once you're getting any help at all, whatever you do, don't get a good job. Once you're paid enough to either eat or pay rent, you'll have to pick one and stick with it. If you're not getting paid well enough for either, you'll get help with both. Your best bet is to work at Wal*Mart and let the naive capitalists tell you you're abusing the system.

Here in America, there are only select places where quality of life means anything. When my family was homeless in one of those places, the air was so good I rarely got as sick as ever before, but when I got sick at all, I could count on some nice medical care and insurance to cover it. In the rest of the state, where my health has been considerably worse, I could only ever expect the worst.

There ought to be a standard below which NO American may live. Even the destitute in Richmond, California ought to have it as good as the destitute in Pacifica, California. ******** the marketplace. It doesn't do the majority of Americans any good so I say we dump it.

Here's the problem. In America, the non-existent "marketplace" controls everything and we still pay more for a bottle of aspirin than folks in the civilized world have to pay for a tablet of Prozac. In the civilized world, all people really have to pay for their most important medication is their tax dollars. In fact, most people are more concerned about tweaking and improving their system than whether or not any undeserving poor are "abusing" it.

Now, you might think it would require a little too much in the way of your taxes. After all, Europeans complain about their taxes all the time. Well, at least they have their shorter workdays, higher wages and longer vacations to comfort them.

The fact is that money doesn't matter. It's useless. There's nothing magical about it. There are tribes that did just as good on wooden beads as we do on our precious money. What matters is the resources for which the money is a direct trade receipt. In Europe, they're like good farmers who know to take very good care of their cows, or else they won't get any milk for the year.

In America, however, they're like a slaughter house that doesn't care if their cows get distemper. That's why the dollar's usefulness versus that of the Euro can be summed up in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCuGBvYDdN8

Sure, Shrub is out of office. However, it's still something I can wave at the faces of capitalists everywhere. The E.U. is socialist and America's capitalist. The dollar is good for nothing but jacket patches and kick me signs and the Euro is good everywhere.

You guys are so smart with your marketplace talk...I was like,"...what?". I feel like I should know more about this considering my occupation.

To me the problem doesn't necessarily lie in our system as much as it does in our citizens. People are scared of what comes next and their selfish. Some people would be willing to let their loved ones veg with a respirator than accept the fact that mom, dad, grandma...they're going to die, just like the rest of us. It's like medicine has transformed from healing the sick to prolonging the life of the sick for as long as possible, no matter the quality of living.

Cindy, I think the reason the dems are trying to push this bill through so quickly is because they want to prove in the next 3 years that this sort of health care is worth keeping. Eventually President Obama will be a lame duck and his successor will more than probably be a republican. What will republicans want to do the second they control the Oval Office? They'll want to dismantle all the commie programs and bills our current president has put in place.
I would love socialized medicine. The peace of mind that comes with knowing you don't have to be scared shitless of what might happen to your children, spouse or even yourself while you are between jobs (and without insurance) is priceless. Imagine how much more reasonable self pay or employer supplied health insurance would be if they were having to compete with a free, government run program/

Just my 2 cents. Don't get me started on surgeons. smile

I think something was said about taxing the top 1.2% of Americans who make over 250k. Personally I don't have a problem with that, the more you make the more you should give your government. The one thing that really ticked me off about Bush was his giving tax cuts to the wealthy while the middle class footed the bill. We all know that "trickle down" does not work.

I see your point and I agree with a lot of it Tsukiyo. However, we should recognize the argument the other side has. Medicare, social security, welfare, and unemployment are quickly running out of money. It is understandable to say,"hey, maybe we should get some money or pay back some debts before embarking on a project this huge." Bush didn't leave our President with many resources. Now the people of America are looking to a body of politicians who haven't accomplished much in the past 20 years to fix everything. It will be hard, but 3 years is a long time.

Health care reform won't be President Obama's legacy.

I don't like calling intellectual dishonesty, but where do you get such an impressive number~? Also, do you mean 90% of American citizens in general, or 90% of the ones who were lucky enough to find a niche in the healthcare system~? You've gotta ask these questions -- it's all part of critical thinking.



Don't worry, Obama isn't going to subsidize health care. If anything, he's going to privatize the resources which are now subsidized. It's a step AWAY from socialism. You win again, free market folks. . . except, the dollar's still toilet paper.


Can you believe that, in this country, water is distributed by municipalities rather than competing corporations~? That's outright Socialism. It's not American. To follow this reasoning to its logical conclusion, water must be privatized.



That much, we can agree on. I'm glad we're finding some common ground.


Thanks to my father, I have a perfect answer to this. According to Maimonides, if your five senses and science contradict scripture, then it's your interpretation of scripture that's wrong.

Um... First off, social security, Medicaid, and Medicare are failures. It's a completely idiotic idea to keep making future generations pay for past things, and with the increasing population, it's out of control. Sure, it might have worked well for some people, but again, who's going to pay for it?

Socialism isn't bad, but neither is capitalism. They're just ideas of how things should be run. Some work well in some cultures, some don't. Great Britain is the welfare state, and besides people like Thatcher, has a long history of putting great trust and power in the government. America doesn't. Even if something works amazingly well in one culture is of no guarantee of its success in another.

A few years ago I learned about fallacious arguments in my English class, and sorry, but I'm calling you out. Whether or not you think America is the greatest has nothing to do with health care. And furthermore, it's not a black or white picture. It's not as though disliking this single plan for health care means I don't care about people who are uninsured or don't want to help people in need. For the past 4 years I've volunteered every summer at either a library, hospital, or school and at my local chapter of Amnesty International. Good to know I'm a heartless greedy monster.

Oh, and a note to everybody here, I truly don't mean any offense by debating my position, so I am sorry if anything I said offends you- if it is a factual error, I will gladly retract it- I know I am far from all-knowing.