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There is some evidence in the bible that might suggest predestination or "election", but I'm not sure. The point of the great commission and the "choice" given to Adam Eve seem like utter lies if that's the case.

What do you think?

What I think is that I get to spend a lot of time retyping; the entire network at my workplace crashed just as I was about to hit "send". Argh.

By the way, it might help a bit if you'd give some examples of the predestination in the Bible, just so we'd know precisely where you're coming from. But that's okay; I can improvise. And I do thank you for an interesting conversation topic.

Ah, predestination versus free will ... why do so many people assume they're at odds? We have to choose between a God who's a liar (that is, what He says about giving us freedom of choice is a lie), or one who's limited (if He can't predict something as simple as which drink I'm going to get at lunchtime, He probably can't tell us squat about what'll happen in the last days). Either way, it's not a God I'd want to trust with my soul.

Fortunately, we have other options. Me, I go with Armenianism. That is ... putting it in real-world, non-spiritual terms ... when I leave work, I can either drive left, or drive right. Now, God knows which way I'm going to go, and He makes His plans accordingly. He doesn't force me to drive either direction. Oh, sure, He might try to influence my decision, putting a little message in my spirit because He knows if I go left, I'll be stuck for half an hour behind an overturned 18-wheeler ... but the decision is ultimately mine. And He, as I said, makes His plans accordingly. Even the Bible says that He knew us before we were even formed in our mother's womb, He knew us; I'd assume that includes knowing our decisions, since those influence who we become.

To my way of thinking, it's not that God dictates what we're going to do, it's that he infallibly predicts what we're going to do. He doesn't force us either way.

And I found a "motivational poster" of Destiny (from Neil Gaiman's Sandman series) that sums it all up: "Of course you have a choice. I just happen to know what it is".

A brief side-step here. Think of Adam and Eve. Now, God pointed to the forbidden fruit and said, "See that? Don't eat it." He knew He was wasting His breath, of course; He knew they'd eat it. He told them anyway. That's an example of God's will being not what happened, and of Him not forcing His will on the world. Make sense?

BUT ... that's just my opinion. And let's not forget that I am (as is everyone reading this) a limited human being, with a limited intellect. No doubt there's ways that both "predestination" and "free will" can both be true that aren't what I've guessed at above. Indeed, philosophers have been arguing over this one for millenia.

Heck, we can't even understand our own language, let alone the language of ancient cultures. I mean, picking on the word "elect", which you've used ... there's passages in the Bible where that seems to refer to humans, but there's also passages where that seems to refer to good angels (as opposed to bad angels, aka demons). Jesus's use of the word in describing those who might almost, "if it were possible", be deceived by Satan in the last days could go either way. I have to blame that one on our limited language.

But, again ... all of this is just my opinion.

Natsumi, I don't mean to tell you how to live or worship, but ... I don't believe I'd go anywhere near that church, myself. I mean, I understand worshipping God because He's God. But since the focus of the New Testament is love, if (in my mind) any church is leaving that out, they're leaving out the most important part. And since "God is love" ... they're really leaving out the most important part.

Or ... maybe it's you. Maybe you're just seeing things ... I won't say, "seeing things that aren't there", but seeing things out of proportion to what's really there. I don't know; I didn't hear the sermon. But taking things out of proportion or out of context is very human, so it wouldn't surprise me. No, I'm not saying it's all your fault, I'm saying it's possible that you're just reading too much into it.

Were I in your place, I'd watch and analyze that church very closely for a month or two ... then probably start poking around for a new church. Make sure of everything before you act, of course.

you should leave church overjoyed! sad poor natsumi... i personally think predestination is total b.s. i wish i could remember the source of this one clip i saw in church. it was from a movie about a disabled guy who wanted to find his place in God's plan. i didn't even see the movie, but it looked really good! the title was... some guy's name... -_- i don't remember. sorry, that probably wasn't much help. sweatdrop