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 Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:38 am
Alright, I know, you guys are probably looking at me and going, "Well no duh havi, that question is somewhat rhetorical." But hold up.
I was watching my English dub DVDs of Yu Yu Hakusho, when I found something that quite interested me. As I was flipping through the character profiles, I reached Koenma's and it said he was living for a little over 700 years, not 800 like I'd previously thought and guessed was the correct age by previous fan fics I've read.
But worst of all comes Youko. Everyone thinks he's over a thousand years old, right? Well according the English dub, he's only 300.
What IS going ON here??? q-q
P.S. Feel free to post any other fanons vs. canon stuff you have encountered. : D
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:02 pm
I thought Youko was thousands of years OO It's good to know he's 300- thanks for clearing that up.
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:44 pm
*shrug* The Koenma thing, I estimated based on his "I'm over fifty times older than you" comment to Yuusuke, which puts him at somewhere over 700, and since that's the only frame of reference we get, I figure he can reasonably be anywhere from 750-850, give or take a decade.
As for Youko, that spot in the English dub was just not correct, especially when you consider the 3 Kings arc. He and Yomi had their shindig 1000 years ago -- also according to the dub -- and he was already a demon in his prime. I'm usually inclined to ignore the whole 300 thing as a dub error that doesn't mesh with the rest of the continuity.
This is my WORST canon vs. fanon pet peeve: Hiei and "sweet snow." Never is it substantiated in canon -- NEVER. And yet it's ALL OVER the fandom.
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Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:31 am
Oh okay- so it's a mistake? so he actually is like a thousand years old?
Hahah the sweet snow.....I actually made Hiei say that he did call it that at first, but quickly learned the real name- ice cream. I guess cuz I have a weakness for making Hiei look silly sweatdrop
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Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:05 am
The thing that annoyed me the most? When Shuichi and Yoko Kurama talk to each other during the fourth round of the Dark Tournament. This was, as far as I can recall, ONLY in the American dub. And it's ALL OVER the fandom.
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Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:11 am
Oh yes that is everywhere...I guess cause that's the version they saw and Youko isn't in it much so that's what they have to look off of. It's sorta dissapointing that Youko didn't make more appearances crying Not that I don't love Shuuichi ^-^ Just saying.. I mean when writing a fic you go off what you saw and they are just trying to figure out how the whole double personality thing works..I think talking to Youko works, though, cuz it's like talking to yourself, which I do all the time..BADLY..
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:56 am
Indeed. I have him talking to himself in that fashion several times in CD, but it's never meant to be two separate people -- it's more meant to be two separate, contradictory thought processes. He's awfully ambivalent, after all.
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:08 am
Alright, thanks for clearing that up. Because when I saw the 300 thing, I kinda paused and thought to myself 'Wait, but what about Yomi?'
As for Yoko and Shuuichi talking to each other, I really don't know. I always looked at it as he changed overtime in human world. I'm thinking that perhaps the Fruit of the Previous Life changed the soul as well, just because let's say a soul includes a person's personality. Perhaps Shuuichi's personality reverted back to Yoko's with the transformations. I've always thought that Shuuichi began his human life with the Yoko personality, but it slowly changed over time as he lived in human world and such.
And you know? There are many things that could cause the whole Yoko vs. Shuuichi thing. With my thoughts above, it could be looked on upon as instinct vs. nurture, you know? Like how he's changed vs. what he's used to doing?
It could also be that the Fruit had a side effect that causes Kurama's soul to go hazy sometimes. That makes it tug back to it's previous ways. Sazuka always said he didn't no the side effects the Fruit of the Previous Life would have on Kurama. *shrugs* : )
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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:28 pm
Yes I do see it more of a thought process thing, but sometimes..it can be almost as if it's two people..because his thoughts probably kind of were split after the fruit..then he works on uniting himself again- so it's more like just different thoughts again. He is one person..but then Youko comes back...and if Youko (which fics love doing) comes out regularly then it would probably be like two people. If Youko only really came out those few times then it's more like one person..
Which brings me to the question- Why didn't Youko fight against Kurama "permanently sealing him off". Did he? Or had Youko just accepted his fate by then? Had they become enough of one to not fight?
So much speculation eek
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:48 pm
See, but we're not even quite sure if they ever WERE two different people. Kurama himself said that his condition in Shuuichi's body was a merging, not a possession...
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Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:52 pm
I've always thought this debate rested on when you believe a soul enters a fetus. Some people think it enters at conception, which would make Yoko either partially human or a murderer.
Some people think it happens later, at any number of landmarks, which would (depending on how far along the fetus was) make Yoko's the only soul inside it. (And then there's the few people like me, who don't even believe in souls. JK.)
It makes sense that if you believe that a soul is there from the beginning, Yoko's would only add to it. Then again, there's the fact that our memories are a large part of who we are, so even if there was another soul there, it would be influenced by Yoko's memories...yeah. Complicated!
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:44 am
Quote: It makes sense that if you believe that a soul is there from the beginning, Yoko's would only add to it. Then again, there's the fact that our memories are a large part of who we are, so even if there was another soul there, it would be influenced by Yoko's memories...yeah. Complicated! Shuuichi has always been very regretful for his life as Youko. My personal belief is that the souls merged together, Shuuichi's and Youko's. I think it'd make more sense that way for the reversion back to Youko Kurama with the Fruit of the Previous Life, because then Shuuichi's soul would be out of the picture, allowing the cold-hearted Youko personality to shine through, no?
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Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:14 pm
Hm..Yes it is possible they aren't really two people..but I think of it sort of as two personalities..wrapped into one and beginning to seperate .but he says he is giving up Youko..so either he is like someone else or he's just moving on..and uhhhh so much to think of!
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:10 am
havishanta Quote: It makes sense that if you believe that a soul is there from the beginning, Yoko's would only add to it. Then again, there's the fact that our memories are a large part of who we are, so even if there was another soul there, it would be influenced by Yoko's memories...yeah. Complicated! Shuuichi has always been very regretful for his life as Youko. My personal belief is that the souls merged together, Shuuichi's and Youko's. I think it'd make more sense that way for the reversion back to Youko Kurama with the Fruit of the Previous Life, because then Shuuichi's soul would be out of the picture, allowing the cold-hearted Youko personality to shine through, no? You know, I never really cared for the theory that merging with a human's soul is part of what makes Kurama not as cruel as he used to be when he was the Youko. Given that the human soul in question would have had no memories or personality, to have that kind of effect, it would have to have intrinsically moral properties. Adding an essentially neutral agent would have done very little. But, since I don't really happen to believe that human souls have intrinsically moral properties, or that demon souls don't, I've always figured that either there was no soul, or it was a neutral factor in the personality shift between the Youko and the Kurama we see now. My fanfiction tends to use the former, even going so far as to say that merging two souls together is something that generally can't be done without divine assistance and that the Youko therefore had to choose an unborn child that didn't yet have its own soul (although that's just to explain more plausibly why Kurama didn't just merge with an adult and save himself a hell of a lot of time and trouble). <----- (has been working way, way too hard on her Kurama analysis lately)EDIT: InkMistress I've always thought this debate rested on when you believe a soul enters a fetus. Some people think it enters at conception, which would make Yoko either partially human or a murderer. Some people think it happens later, at any number of landmarks, which would (depending on how far along the fetus was) make Yoko's the only soul inside it. (And then there's the few people like me, who don't even believe in souls. JK.) It makes sense that if you believe that a soul is there from the beginning, Yoko's would only add to it. Then again, there's the fact that our memories are a large part of who we are, so even if there was another soul there, it would be influenced by Yoko's memories...yeah. Complicated! I would think that rather than using personal beliefs, one would use the general religious/cultural beliefs of the person who wrote the source material. But, since I don't know what those are, I've tried to stay away from that section of the debate. The only thing I'll say is that Kurama really couldn't have just kicked the soul out, because it would show up in Spirit World way ahead of schedule and with the body still alive. If that wouldn't raise some red flags for Koenma, I don't know what would. If the body didn't have a soul yet, or if they merged, it would be much more likely to go unnoticed or get shelved under bureaucratic error.
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:03 pm
See, my whole idea with merging kinda goes back to my thought on souls already having a personality. Which, just seeing how gentle Kurama in his non-threat interactions, makes me think Shuuichi's soul very gentle. However, something I don't like is that there isn't really a Shuuichi is there. People divide Kurama into three personalities, but really there's only three identities, and two personalities. Kurama and Youko Kurama, however, this returns back to the debate. Once again, I'd like to state that I've always thought Kurama vs. Youko was more of nurture vs. instinct. My problem with the theory of a pure Youko soul inside of a human body is just seeing how gentle Kurama turned out and how quickly it reverted back with the Fruit of the Previous Life. Sure, Kurama can be very cruel, however I think anyone whose had memories of such and is encountered by such back-stabbing and filthy creatures would be pretty merciless towards them. (I'm referring to Kurama's fight with Roto, the guy with the button? Death Plant? Ring a bell?) Once again, it's in his instinct. But Youko Kurama was even more INTELLIGENT than regular Kurama, leading me to believe to my merge theory. If it was just a plain soul implant, than I would think the knowledge would have stuck, but if its a merge, than perhaps information could have been lost, no? Quote: My fanfiction tends to use the former, even going so far as to say that merging two souls together is something that generally can't be done without divine assistance and that the Youko therefore had to choose an unborn child that didn't yet have its own soul (although that's just to explain more plausibly why Kurama didn't just merge with an adult and save himself a hell of a lot of time and trouble). Now I think that's a very good point however. Why WOULD Kurama go through the whole trouble of growing up in toddler stages if he could have just merged with an adult's soul? The only reason I can think of is energy limits. He was on the brink of death, though how that would affect a merging I'm not too sure.
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