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A Difficult Verse in the Bible - Isaiah 45:7

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Zukato Nokuchiku

Big Bro

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:21 pm
Verse Isaiah 45:7 (New International Version)

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.


I have a hard time understanding this verse, and I would be happy if anyone could come with any opinions or shed some light over this. I apologise if there is anything that could have explained this verse in the chapter of Isaia 45, so please tell me. Here is the whole chapter:

Isaiah 45 (New International Version)

Isaiah 45
1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:

2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains [a] ;
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the LORD,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.

4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,

6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

8 "You heavens above, rain down righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness grow with it;
I, the LORD, have created it.

9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?

10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'

11 "This is what the LORD says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?

12 It is I who made the earth
and created mankind upon it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts.

13 I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness:
I will make all his ways straight.
He will rebuild my city
and set my exiles free,
but not for a price or reward,
says the LORD Almighty."

14 This is what the LORD says:
"The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, [c]
and those tall Sabeans—
they will come over to you
and will be yours;
they will trudge behind you,
coming over to you in chains.
They will bow down before you
and plead with you, saying,
'Surely God is with you, and there is no other;
there is no other god.' "

15 Truly you are a God who hides himself,
O God and Savior of Israel.

16 All the makers of idols will be put to shame and disgraced;
they will go off into disgrace together.

17 But Israel will be saved by the LORD
with an everlasting salvation;
you will never be put to shame or disgraced,
to ages everlasting.

18 For this is what the LORD says—
he who created the heavens,
he is God;
he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it;
he did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited—
he says:
"I am the LORD,
and there is no other.

19 I have not spoken in secret,
from somewhere in a land of darkness;
I have not said to Jacob's descendants,
'Seek me in vain.'
I, the LORD, speak the truth;
I declare what is right.

20 "Gather together and come;
assemble, you fugitives from the nations.
Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood,
who pray to gods that cannot save.

21 Declare what is to be, present it—
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD ?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.

22 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.

23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.' "
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult.
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:35 pm
I see a connection with verse 1-- God fights His peoples battles for them. He brings disaster because He is a God that judges, always righteously, but sometimes harshly. The Plagues of Egypt and the judgements in Revelation come to mind. I don't think this means that God throws down disasters upon the innocent... but that it is simply illustrating the capability of God to fully and properly deal with both the righteous and the wicked.  

Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler


Vasilius Konstantinos

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:17 pm
This writing was to Cyrus, the King of Persia who rebuilt Jerusalem and had the Temple construction approved and funded from his coffers. he was not a Jew or Israelite and had no ties to Judah. SO it was written to show him who was in control, and who Cyrus was to recognize as the One Almighty God.

As it was, Cyrus was able to discern The Lord by seeing that for every action done that the opposing force will work towards his glory also, that His dominance of Babylon made way for Cyrus, a Non-Judaean Ruler to seize power not on his own but by the authority of Heaven. This also showed Cyrus that he was to help out, and be blessed by doing so, to rebuild the Temple and to extend peace to the land of Judah.

Take a look:

I form the light(God's action) and create darkness(effect of the light)
I bring prosperity(GOd's creation) and create disaster(the effect of peace/prosperity)
I, the LORD, do all these things(He knows the effects and controls the effects and He is the Creator of all)

Go figure.  
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:22 pm
Konstan, what exactly do you mean by 'effect'? I see no way disaster can be an effect of prosperity. Do you mean 'opposite'? I'm not sure I understand what point you are making with your example.

The Hebrew used for 'disaster' here is the same used for 'evil' when speaking of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It has no usage that does not mean some variation on evil and/or calamity.

The context seems pretty simple to me, though I could be missing something important. The Lord is declaring His absolute power, greatness, and glory to a king that He intends to use on Earth. He claims that none can surpass Him in anything, including wrath.

EDIT: Breaking down what you wrote, evil/disaster is the effect of God's creation. Obviously some evil and some disaster followed creation, but it wasn't a direct effect. Original sin led to evil and disaster.

I don't mean to be hostile or attack what you were saying; I would just genuinely like to understand what point you were making.  

Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler


Vasilius Konstantinos

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:01 pm
The Law of Cause and Effect. Action and reaction, He is on control of both regardless of how it looks and seems.


יֹוצֵ֥ר אֹור֙ וּבֹורֵ֣א חֹ֔שֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂ֥ה שָׁלֹ֖ום וּבֹ֣ורֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה עֹשֶׂ֥ה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה:ר

Literal Translation is:

The Creator, The God of Light, did make peace then make bad( Hebrew: רָ֑ע Rah, Greek: Chaos- krateos also means destruction), I created, YHVH, all of these.  
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:56 pm
Thanks, I get what you were saying now. smile  

Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler


ferret658

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:28 am
I'm gonna get right to the point. God is repeating Himself. He does that a lot. I remember some scripture we read in Sunday school once. After almost everything God said, He added, "For I am the LORD God."

God's just reiterating what He did in Genesis. Ya know, that little thing where he said, "Let there be light"...?

Genesis 1:3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light good and he separated the light from the darkness.

Addressing "I bring prosperity and create disaster," part....

Not using specific scripture here, but He did bring prosperity. Eden was prosperous while Adam and Eve were kept upright. King David saw the return of the Ark of the Covenant while he was living.

God also created disaster. Not for the enemies of the Israelites, but also for the Israelites themselves. He let them be captured, and exiled into slavery rival nations.  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:32 am
I think I understand now, thank you all for your comments. smile  

Zukato Nokuchiku

Big Bro

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