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The Existence of God

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Romjacks
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:48 am


I'm fairly certain that those of us who are in this guild already believe in God, but I wanted to post this and I didn't think the What Are You Doing/Chat thread was the appropriate place to put this, so I decided to make a new thread for it.

I posted a response to a few agnostics/atheists in a guild in a thread about the existence of God. This is what I came up with. Tell me what you guys think:


Spike Zantren
THE KALAM COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT


“[An eternally old universe] is so against reason that I cannot believe that any philosopher, however slight his understanding, has maintained this, for such a position involves an evident contradiction.” (Saint Bonaventure, In Sent. d.1, p.1, a.1, q.2)

Distinguished Proponents: John Philoponus, Al-Kindi, Saadia, Al-Ghazali, and St. Bonaventure

Summary Form of the Argument
Step I. Whatever Begins to Exist has a Cause
Step II. The Universe Began to Exist
Step III. Therefore the Universe Has a Cause
Step IV. This Cause must be transcendent and immaterial, uncaused, unlimited in being, eternal and changeless, omnipotent, personal, and one.

Expanded Form of the Argument
View the expanded form of the argument here.


THE TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT


Summary Form of the Argument
Step I. All designs imply a designer
Step II. There is great design in the universe
Step III. Therefore, there must be a Great Designer of the universe

Expanded Form of the Argument
When you see a building on the street, it appears to have been designed. So you may be thinking "I wonder who built that?" From your deduction, the building has been designed, and every design must have a designer. Now, because we know that a tornado (which has no intellect) could not have designed that building; design has to result from some sort of intelligence. The designer also can hold an influence over his design, because as the designer, they can control how their design works.

Now, seeing as how the Universe has physical laws that are so fine-tuned for life on Earth, and that the Earth is the perfect distance away from the Sun so that it does not overheat or freeze, and also holds the capabilities for carbon-based life to exist, it seems to suggest that it had to have been designed that way. The Universe has the perfect fine-tuning to support life, and the laws of physics are orderly and do not simply change, suggesting order in the Universe. Science itself arised from the assumption that God must exist, and that His creation is a stable one with laws that remain constant and predictable, showing that His creation is orderly and not random.

Now one at this point may ask: "If God was the designer of the Universe, who designed God?" This question, however, is an illogical one. A painter isn't painted; a painter paints. A sculptor isn't sculpted; a sculptor sculpts. A calculator isn't calculated; a calculator calculates. In the same way, the designer isn't designed; the designer designs. God by definition is eternal and the first cause, so if anything could have created God, then that being, by definition, would be God. This leads us to the next argument.

THE ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT


Summary Form of the Argument
Step I. God is defined as a being than which no greater can be conceived.
Step II. Such a being can be conceived.
Step III. If there were no such being in reality, then a greater being—namely, a being than which no greater can be conceived, and which exists—can be conceived.
Step IV. Yet nothing can be greater than a being than which no greater can be conceived.
Step V. Therefore a being than which no greater can be conceived—i.e., God—must exist.

Expanded Form of the Argument
View the expanded form of the argument here.


Recommended Sources
Note: These linked sites are Christian-oriented, not necessarily openly theistic. I highly recommend them to anyone to read from. Many of the common questions asked can be answered in the first and last recommended links in this list, so please do a simple search on either of those sites before asking for the answer to a question; I can't always answer every single objection, so it's fitting that you do your own research instead of expecting others to do it for you. Thank you.

Refutations of Evolution and Evidence for Creation:
http://creation.com/
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
http://creationwiki.org/Main_Page/
http://www.icr.org/

Apologetics:
http://allaboutgod.com/does-god-exist.htm
http://contenderministries.org/
http://aomin.org/
http://www.tektonics.org/mainhub.html
http://www.youtube.com/user/DrOakley1689
http://www.youtube.com/user/Veritas48

Questions Answered:
http://www.gotquestions.org/

If any of you guys can think of other arguments for the existence of God, then maybe we could start that kind of a thread here. Otherwise, feedback and criticism would be welcomed. Thanks.

EDIT: We should bug Gaia to add spoiler tags to forum posts. stare
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:39 am


I went to a Christian conference in April and one of the speakers explained this arguement to us.
I think it's a very logical arguement.
I haven't used it but that's probably because I get frustrated with agnostics/atheists.
Everytime I talk to one of them and they ask me about my beliefs, I'll tell them about Jesus and they just laugh in my face.
Aren't you supposed to be the one listening? If you don't believe what I believe that's fine but don't get snotty about it. :/
I'm not saying that's what all of them are like but all I've experienced do this to me.
But whatever, rant for the day.
I just think if I use that arguement so many people are going to tear it apart to the point where it's unrecognizable.
I'll stick to my Jesus talk. (:

EDIT:: I don't believe this is your argument.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:26 pm


I find this thread to be an excellent idea. Good work Spike.^_^
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:55 pm


Its a great start for people who dont know what to say when talking to someone else of a different faith =3
really great job

Eternal Remembrance


Lady Okami Gin-Iro

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:46 pm


It's nice. There are very good points here. smile
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:45 am


eek Big Words eek

Haven923
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:17 am


Haven923
eek Big Words eek

I know! Is confuddling

Show some respect! I'm sure Spike spent ages typing this out. Plus, it's amazing. 3nodding
@Haven: I'm joking 'bout the show some respect thing. ; )
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:50 am


The sad part is I know what they mean sweatdrop

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