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Resa Keilor

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:14 am


Okay here are my questions, if a person was sent to hell or wherever to endure eternal punishment. Then someone who truly cared about them was sent to a Paradise called heaven where the Bible says there will be no sin, no sorrow, or pain. How could that be? I mean if someones husband who was a good man by human standards ended up in hell while the wife was in heaven, and they had really truly cared, loved, one another how would she not be sad? The Bible says you'll have all your answers in heaven so she wouldn't have forgotten about it. I asked my pastor and he said he thought it might be that we just saw the full extent to their sins and would know they belonged there or something along those lines. But the Bible also says we're all born sinners so wouldn't that be saying we'd see their sins as worse than ours? And isn't the Bible supposed to teach us forgiveness? When I really care about someone I can forgive even the worst crimes they've committed, so why would that be different?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:10 am


Unfortunately I don't know how to answer your question but I hope this helps you understand hell better.
Boxy
Hell – Do You Know What the Hell It Is?

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The Valley of Hinnom, a place-name often translated as "Hell" in the New Testament.


"Hell" is the stuff of nightmares: burning in sulfur, pitchforks and demons, the whole "eternal damnation" deal. However, such symbology is conspicuously absent from actual reference in the original text - except the "lake of fire", which I'll touch on briefly.

Three words have been translated as "Hell" in most English Bibles - Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus - all of which are specific theological constructs rather than euphuisms for a Satan-run prison-house.

Now, to get down to the nitty-gritty: what were Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, respectively?

Hades
Hades is a lovely Greek word meaning roughly “hidden,” as in the “hidden world,” or “the world of spirits.” In Greek thought, it meant the underworld – no, not burning and eternal damnation. It was where all people went when they died – the good, the bad, and even the ugly (woah, Polyphemus! Back into the cave!)

Theoi.com, a wellspring of information on Greek thought and myth, has this to say in regards to Hades:

Theoi.com
In ancient Greek mythology and religion the DOMOS HAIDOU or "realm of Haides" was the land of the dead, the final resting place for departed souls. It was a dark and dismal realm in which bodiless ghosts flitted across grey fields of asphodel. The Homeric poets knew of no Islands of the Blessed or Elysian fields, or for that matter a Tartarean hell, instead all the spirits, including those of the great heroes, descended into Haides.
http://theoi.com/Kosmos/Haides.html


A truly dismal place indeed. However, it is a necessary construction by those trying to figure out where our souls go once we die. The notion that the good people immediately (and note the use of “immediately”) go to heaven and the bad go immediately to hell is rather new. The Hebrews, those good ol’ writers of the Old Testament, had the very same idea, and called it Sheol. The Norse named their overall afterlife Hel, where we got the modern term. All of these, interestingly enough, mean “hidden.”

The Christians didn’t just ignore this idea and come up with a whole new idea about the afterlife, mind you. Josephus, a Jewish scholar of the 1st century (that’s around the time of Christ, for those of you who aren’t into the whole calendar thing) recorded the Christian notion of the afterlife:

Flavius Josephus
Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; … This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone’s behavior and manners.

This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead …
(Josephus, Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades, 1, 5)


Amazingly enough, Josephus actually refers to a part of Hades where the righteous are rewarded! This is called by Josephus the “Bosom of Abraham,” a term referred to by Christ (Luke 16:22-23). Granted, the word translated as “Hell” in verse 23 is Hades, Abraham’s Bosom is set off from the rest of Hades.

But wait – didn’t Christ say something about burning in a lake of fire or something? This is the second term to discuss – Gehenna, or the “lake of fire and brimstone.”

Gehenna
First things first – where did the word Gehenna come from, anyway? The word itself is a compound word pulled from Hebrew into Greek which means “The Valley of the Son of Hinnom.” This particular valley is on the southern outskirts of Jerusalem, and was famous for being used in the past first as a trash heap where garbage was burnt, and later as an altar to sacrifice babies to the false god Molech.

You heard me. Baby sacrifices. To a heathen god. No wonder these people get the burnination.

Bible, King James Version
And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
(Jeremiah 32:35, KJV)


Gehenna was by far the term that Christ himself used. Of the eleven times Christ used Gehenna, every single one of them referred to complete and utter destruction, and only this term was ever used to describe “the lake of fire.” It should be, because this is the only use of “Hell” which has anything to do with fire!

However, who is eligible to go to Gehenna? Certainly, a large amount of who are classically labeled as “wicked” will be thrust into Gehenna; but we also must acknowledge that Gehenna is not always a permanent state of being. The Jewish Encyclopedia has an excellent description of people who are very likely to enter into the lake of fire:

The Jewish Encyclopedia
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell [Gehenna] immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). … They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). …

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna ('Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Soṭah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a). …
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G


A good summary is this: those who violate basic personal and property rights (murder, robbery, theft), who violate contracts (adulterers, oath-breakers), or who misrepresent the truth (scam artists, habitual liars, hypocrites) are pretty much guaranteed a spot in the hot seat. However, not all sins are punished equally, and war criminals are likely to spend a very long time thinking about their own human frailties. So, think of it as a cosmic time-out box, with different punishments for different crimes.

But wait a second – where’s this Satan character fit into this thing? I thought he was supposed to be in charge of the whole operation, wasn’t he? Oh, but there’s still one more concept to touch on – Tartarus.

Tartarus
So, starting off with the definition once again: what is Tartarus? Well, it’s a Greek term for a part of the underworld. In Greek thought, it equaled roughly Gehenna, as described about. Quoting Theoi.com once more,

Theoi.com
TARTAROS was the prison of the damned, a region in Haides where the souls of wicked men were condemned by the Judges of the Dead to an period of enforced purgatory, or, for the truly unredeemable, to eternal damnation.
http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Tartaros2.html


Now, here we have an interesting connotation to explore: “the truly unredeemable, [experiencing] eternal damnation.” Doesn’t that sound familiar? Yet, it’s the same place – only with two different levels of punishment!

The first point to note in relating this to Christianity is that Tartarus is only referred to explicitly once in the texts – by Peter, in describing the location of “sinning angels” (sound like Satan, anyone?)

Bible, King James Version
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(II Peter 2:4, KJV)


Now, the notion that Tartarus is a place to hold prisoners until judgment is a well-established thought, and is found also in the phrase “Gehenna.” However, as Peter was writing primarily to Gentiles, they were unlikely to know about a particular phrase referring to a trash-heap in Jerusalem, so he used the generic Greek phrase Tartarus.

But what of the ultimate destiny of the people in Gehenna/Tartarus? Of that we can read in the book of Revelation (if we may for a moment again humor the scriptures):

Bible, King James Version
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev. 20:13-15, KJV)


Ultimately, those who remain in Gehenna/Tartarus at the judgment – namely, those who were too sinful to escape from the lake of fire in a reasonable timeframe – are doomed to wallow in their sins forever.

The Greeks imagined some pretty good examples: men who chopped up their own children and served them to guests, serial rapists, and so forth. Christians envisioned Satan, the father of lies and of all sin, as ending up there. If I may be so presumptuous as to judge one’s righteousness, I would reckon that Hitler has little chance of escaping this second death.

Sadistic bastards get a sadistic b*****d’s punishment. For wholly selling their humanity for the pride of the world, they receive what little of the world is left: death and destruction.

Conclusion
The ancients had a much better grasp of these things than we do. The system as originally envisioned by Christ and others allowed for justice to be pursued, without needlessly condemning those who commit finite sins to an infinite purpose. Remember, folks, although the flame and its consequences may be everlasting, the duration of punishment is not.

Go to hell? Sure, but I’m taking you to Hades with me.

rmcdra
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omnijafar

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:13 pm


Resa, you've got a point.
I don't think that article helped though...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:03 am


i would argue that we can't really know how we'll feel or think when we're in Heaven. we are taught in the Scriptures that we will be perfect, as Christ the man was when he was resurrected.

i like burnination


rmcdra
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:11 am


Exactly we cannot know who will go to heaven or hell and it is not our place to judge others. Also the afterlife is not my focus, my focus is to follow the Law of Agape (Matthew 22:36-40)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:49 pm


rmcdra
Exactly we cannot know who will go to heaven or hell and it is not our place to judge others. Also the afterlife is not my focus, my focus is to follow the Law of Agape (Matthew 22:36-40)

the two are intertwined (afterlife focus & loving others/God focus), i think.

i like burnination


Vasilius Konstantinos

PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:50 pm


It stinks that one of the Orthodox positions is not shown in that article.

The River of Fire

a good read.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:17 am


i believe that hell is wherever Jesus is absent, whether in this life or another.

i believe it is not so much a judgment as a choice people make for themselves, just like at the end in C.S. Lewis' The last Battle.

john 3: 17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
18
Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19
And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.

The USCCB notes say: Condemn: the Greek root means both judgment and condemnation. Jesus' purpose is to save, but his coming provokes judgment; some condemn themselves by turning from the light.

chessiejo


rmcdra
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:46 am


i like burnination
rmcdra
Exactly we cannot know who will go to heaven or hell and it is not our place to judge others. Also the afterlife is not my focus, my focus is to follow the Law of Agape (Matthew 22:36-40)

the two are intertwined (afterlife focus & loving others/God focus), i think.

I follow the Law of Agape because I am called to follow it, not because there is a reward of an afterlife if there is one. I believe there is an afterlife but I do not know. What is in the afterlife, I do not know, but personally if I were to focus on the afterlife, it would distract me from knowing and sharing God's love here.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:07 pm


rmcdra
i like burnination
rmcdra
Exactly we cannot know who will go to heaven or hell and it is not our place to judge others. Also the afterlife is not my focus, my focus is to follow the Law of Agape (Matthew 22:36-40)

the two are intertwined (afterlife focus & loving others/God focus), i think.

I follow the Law of Agape because I am called to follow it, not because there is a reward of an afterlife if there is one. I believe there is an afterlife but I do not know. What is in the afterlife, I do not know, but personally if I were to focus on the afterlife, it would distract me from knowing and sharing God's love here.

i didn't say anything about rewards.

i like burnination


Resa Keilor

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:14 pm


Thanks anyway everybody.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:30 pm


C.S. Lewis in The Great Debate proposes the thought that heaven is "more real" than earth or hell; it is so real that blades of grass there will cut the feet of newcomers who are not prepared for its ultra-reality.

so it is simply really difficult for the souls of the blessed to minister to those they love who have not attained heaven, because those others are less real, and physically they are difficult to reach and cannot be talked to for any length of time because their reality is so unreal.

chessiejo


Resa Keilor

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:29 pm


That makes a lot of sense, but hell. Just thinking of those I loe going there hurts down to the core. And surely in heaven you'd see with perfect clarity in heaven.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:50 am


Good point on somethings but I think you might have it a little twisted up. When you're in heaven you don't have the same things on earth. When you're married you say "until death do us part", which is true. When you're in heaven you aren't married anymore. I can see were you get confused, because you think that when you're in heaven you remember people that are in hell, but you don't. People in hell will remember you and see you have a fun time, but when you're in heaven you won't remember them and won't see how bad a time they are having down there. This is only so that you don't feel bad about having them being down there and so that you can praise God with happiness instead of having a bad time.

*If for any reason you don't get this or don't agree with this, please remember that this is what I was told, and what I believe, and that you do not have too.*

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i like burnination

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:52 pm


chessiejo
C.S. Lewis in The Great Debate proposes the thought that heaven is "more real" than earth or hell; it is so real that blades of grass there will cut the feet of newcomers who are not prepared for its ultra-reality.

you mean The Great Divorce? wink
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