~Angelic Ruin~: A Guild on Unity

[Neferet -House of Night-]

After seeing believers and non-believers constantly fighting, bickering, flaming, etc I decided that this has to stop. Gaia is a site open to everyone of every different religion. Why can't we get along and coexist peacefully. Thus why I created my own guild.

The name Angelic Ruin came from a story I wrote a few years back. It refers to the world going into ruin when demons rise up and use a power to destroy the world. They do this when the world is divided among governments, religions, races, etc.

The guild is about unity. Getting to know and understand people of different religions and living together peacefully. It sounds like a hippie idea. But the constant fighting is getting annoying right? So why not build a bridge and make things smoother.

We don't have any fancy buttons or anything like that. We're fairly new, and my usb drive is on the fritz. ^.^U

We're a budding guild. So if you do join, be sure to spread the word to your friends. Even if you don't, still spread the word. ^.^

"Together we stand, divided we fall" The Wall-Pink Floyd

Join With Us: And the World be as one  

[Tornadomaster_Auron]

*dries his tears* It's a great idea. I already sent my join request, and I wish to support this great idea of unifying others, regardless of their faith, to help the world.  

[Crimson Raccoon]

Doesn't this guild here get by well enough without any fighting or bickering? I thought people do a decent job here... I mean, I've never seen any flaming or anything. People disagree but it's usually been respectful, in my experience.  

[Crimson Raccoon]

Actually, now that I'm looking at your guild, I see there is a least as much arguing among posters including yourself in it as there is in any other guild I've seen. Of course what else can you expect from Gaia? But still, your claim of the guild's purpose is not a reality.

I disagree with the introduction statement on your guild. I'll debate it point for point:

"All over Gaia there are Christian only guilds..."
So what? There are all kinds of exclusive guilds on gaia, that's the point of a guild. And there are also plenty of Christian guilds, like this one, that are perfectly open to people of other beliefs and opinions.

"...trying to proselytize to the non-believers and convince them to convert."
No one's forcing anyone to do anything; no one's being forced to convert. So what's wrong with a Christian trying to convince someone of their beliefs? Isn't that the point of any discussion of differing opinions? Aren't you trying to convince us of your belief that we shouldn't try to proselytize anyone? What makes it okay when you try to do it?

"They don't understand the positions of the non-believers..."
That's a broad assumption on your part, and it really makes no difference anyway. Any average Christian understands any average non-Christian just as well as any average person understands any other average person.

"...nor do they care about why they are a non-believers."
No, a Christian who tries to share their beliefs with a non-Christian does so because they care about them; because they don't want them to go to hell. You may disagree with their beliefs, but at least realize that they do it because they care; if they didn't care they wouldn't bother trying to convince anyone.

"Angelic Ruin however is different."
No, it isn't different. I've seen plenty of arguing in your guild, including extremely judgmental statements from you yourself. You've said such wonderfully accepting and understanding statements as: "I have to say that your dad is an idiot. If anything, his congregation should be ashamed to call him their pastor." Those are pretty harsh words! You said that just because that person's father has beliefs different than yours.

Or another time someone disagreed with you, you said, "This is why I haven't invited the zealots yet."

Clearly, you are not looking for an open, accepting discussion between believers and non-believers to promote understanding. Besides, if that's all you wanted, this guild right here would suit you fine because there's no more arguing here than there is in yours. It seems that what you really want is a guild that you're in charge of, so you can keep people who disagree with you too much out of being a member. And along the way you dish out all the insults and stereotyping that you claim your guild is above.

"If they had a good head on their shoulders like the group that are members here they wouldn't [take the Bible literally]." There's a quote from you in your guild, essentially saying that anyone who takes the Bible literally doesn't have a good head on their shoulders. Is that how you "understand" and "build bridges between" people who have different beliefs than you?

( those quotes are from this thread in her guild: http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=15825415 )

I just think people should be aware what the guild is really like before being won over by the pretense of it being open and accepting and above arguments. I certainly wouldn't feel accepted there; but then again, since I believe the Bible, I obviously don't have a good head on my shoulders; so my opinion probably shouldn't be taken too seriously.  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Crimson Raccoon

Actually, now that I'm looking at your guild, I see there is a least as much arguing among posters including yourself in it as there is in any other guild I've seen. Of course what else can you expect from Gaia? But still, your claim of the guild's purpose is not a reality.

I disagree with the introduction statement on your guild. I'll debate it point for point:

"All over Gaia there are Christian only guilds..."
So what? There are all kinds of exclusive guilds on gaia, that's the point of a guild. And there are also plenty of Christian guilds, like this one, that are perfectly open to people of other beliefs and opinions.

"...trying to proselytize to the non-believers and convince them to convert."
No one's forcing anyone to do anything; no one's being forced to convert. So what's wrong with a Christian trying to convince someone of their beliefs? Isn't that the point of any discussion of differing opinions? Aren't you trying to convince us of your belief that we shouldn't try to proselytize anyone? What makes it okay when you try to do it?

"They don't understand the positions of the non-believers..."
That's a broad assumption on your part, and it really makes no difference anyway. Any average Christian understands any average non-Christian just as well as any average person understands any other average person.

"...nor do they care about why they are a non-believers."
No, a Christian who tries to share their beliefs with a non-Christian does so because they care about them; because they don't want them to go to hell. You may disagree with their beliefs, but at least realize that they do it because they care; if they didn't care they wouldn't bother trying to convince anyone.

"Angelic Ruin however is different."
No, it isn't different. I've seen plenty of arguing in your guild, including extremely judgmental statements from you yourself. You've said such wonderfully accepting and understanding statements as: "I have to say that your dad is an idiot. If anything, his congregation should be ashamed to call him their pastor." Those are pretty harsh words! You said that just because that person's father has beliefs different than yours.

Or another time someone disagreed with you, you said, "This is why I haven't invited the zealots yet."

Clearly, you are not looking for an open, accepting discussion between believers and non-believers to promote understanding. Besides, if that's all you wanted, this guild right here would suit you fine because there's no more arguing here than there is in yours. It seems that what you really want is a guild that you're in charge of, so you can keep people who disagree with you too much out of being a member. And along the way you dish out all the insults and stereotyping that you claim your guild is above.

"If they had a good head on their shoulders like the group that are members here they wouldn't [take the Bible literally]." There's a quote from you in your guild, essentially saying that anyone who takes the Bible literally doesn't have a good head on their shoulders. Is that how you "understand" and "build bridges between" people who have different beliefs than you?

( those quotes are from this thread in her guild: http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=15825415 )

I just think people should be aware what the guild is really like before being won over by the pretense of it being open and accepting and above arguments. I certainly wouldn't feel accepted there; but then again, since I believe the Bible, I obviously don't have a good head on my shoulders; so my opinion probably shouldn't be taken too seriously.

-smack forehead-

It's not saying "You're going to hell for believing xyz" That's the point. It's not telling people you should believe in this. No one's trying to convert one another. That's the kind of fighting I'm talking about. The topics we have are DEBATES. I haven't set up the sub forums as of yet. So that's why they're in the general section.  

[Contralto in a Corset]

Crimson Raccoon

Doesn't this guild here get by well enough without any fighting or bickering? I thought people do a decent job here... I mean, I've never seen any flaming or anything. People disagree but it's usually been respectful, in my experience.

Zahwomen

And he will.
Repent or spend eternity in the absence of the Lord, forced to listen to the wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

yup, nothing but smiles and cupcakes here, uh-huh, totally, a-yeah. rolleyes

 

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Crimson Raccoon

Actually, now that I'm looking at your guild, I see there is a least as much arguing among posters including yourself in it as there is in any other guild I've seen. Of course what else can you expect from Gaia? But still, your claim of the guild's purpose is not a reality.

This is the internet.

I disagree with the introduction statement on your guild. I'll debate it point for point:

Quote:

"All over Gaia there are Christian only guilds..."
So what? There are all kinds of exclusive guilds on gaia, that's the point of a guild. And there are also plenty of Christian guilds, like this one, that are perfectly open to people of other beliefs and opinions.

Yes. Because they are so open that their members say that non-believers are evil devil worshipers and what not. That is very open. You're absolutely right.
[

Quote:

i]"...trying to proselytize to the non-believers and convince them to convert."
No one's forcing anyone to do anything; no one's being forced to convert. So what's wrong with a Christian trying to convince someone of their beliefs? Isn't that the point of any discussion of differing opinions? Aren't you trying to convince us of your belief that we shouldn't try to proselytize anyone? What makes it okay when you try to do it?

It's trying to get people to actively use their brains. Not try and convert them to a religion because it leads them to heaven. If we were trying to convert people over to one religion then why would there be an atheist, a Satanist, and a pagan? neutral

Quote:

"They don't understand the positions of the non-believers..."
That's a broad assumption on your part, and it really makes no difference anyway. Any average Christian understands any average non-Christian just as well as any average person understands any other average person.

Yes. Because telling someone that they're a devil worshiper for believing another God is understanding. I'm sorry but pagans and other non-believers don't believe in the concept of the Devil or Hell. neutral

Quote:

"...nor do they care about why they are a non-believers."
No, a Christian who tries to share their beliefs with a non-Christian does so because they care about them; because they don't want them to go to hell. You may disagree with their beliefs, but at least realize that they do it because they care; if they didn't care they wouldn't bother trying to convince anyone.

No. It's a number's game bub. They don't do it because they "care" They do it because they're right and everyone else is wrong. The more people they convert the more brownie points God will give them, the closer they get to heaven, according to them.

Quote:

"Angelic Ruin however is different."
No, it isn't different. I've seen plenty of arguing in your guild, including extremely judgmental statements from you yourself. You've said such wonderfully accepting and understanding statements as: "I have to say that your dad is an idiot. If anything, his congregation should be ashamed to call him their pastor." Those are pretty harsh words! You said that just because that person's father has beliefs different than yours.

Or another time someone disagreed with you, you said, "This is why I haven't invited the zealots yet."

Clearly, you are not looking for an open, accepting discussion between believers and non-believers to promote understanding. Besides, if that's all you wanted, this guild right here would suit you fine because there's no more arguing here than there is in yours. It seems that what you really want is a guild that you're in charge of, so you can keep people who disagree with you too much out of being a member. And along the way you dish out all the insults and stereotyping that you claim your guild is above.

"If they had a good head on their shoulders like the group that are members here they wouldn't [take the Bible literally]." There's a quote from you in your guild, essentially saying that anyone who takes the Bible literally doesn't have a good head on their shoulders. Is that how you "understand" and "build bridges between" people who have different beliefs than you?

1. Most of the topics that were in the general forum were DEBATES! I have spoken to Kimihiro many a times, and both him and I agree on that. However you shouldn't be so quick to judge me when you have that giant beam in your eye. ~_^

2. We're looking for people that aren't people who think there is only one way. We're looking for intelligent people who want to know more. I know Kimihiro can be quite close-minded as an atheist. But he is good at upholding rules. Which is why he's there. I do not want there to be constant flame wars there. Which is why I asked my members what they would want, instead of making it a decision myself. Why? Because it is also their guild and the people should be able to voice what they want.

3. The Bible is not meant to be taken literally. And I do stand by what I said because I have encountered Christians that take the Bible too literally and couldn't distinguish reality from fiction. And because of that, those people decide to judge others as they see fit. When in reality they should be watching their own actions.
( those quotes are from this thread in her guild: http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=15825415 )

Quote:

I just think people should be aware what the guild is really like before being won over by the pretense of it being open and accepting and above arguments. I certainly wouldn't feel accepted there; but then again, since I believe the Bible, I obviously don't have a good head on my shoulders; so my opinion probably shouldn't be taken too seriously.

It's one thing to believe in the Bible. It's another to let it take complete control of your life, to the point that you lost connection with your own humanity. Which is what I have seen happen to many Christians and it saddens me. It's sweet that you "care" however, all you've said is nothing but libel. It'd be better to let people look at it for themselves. They don't need you to tell them what they should look for. You're not their representative. Christ is. :3  

[Crimson Raccoon]

Militant Christian

Crimson Raccoon

Doesn't this guild here get by well enough without any fighting or bickering? I thought people do a decent job here... I mean, I've never seen any flaming or anything. People disagree but it's usually been respectful, in my experience.

Zahwomen

And he will.
Repent or spend eternity in the absence of the Lord, forced to listen to the wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

yup, nothing but smiles and cupcakes here, uh-huh, totally, a-yeah. rolleyes

Well, for one thing, Zahwomen was joking (it wasn't funny), and in fact she isn't even a Christian, nor does she really claim to be. She was just trolling here for a relatively short time, and she hasn't been around for a while. And if you actually look into that thread, you will see that the majority of people, on both sides of the debate, criticized Zahwomen for her comment, and a very mature, respectful, and in-depth discussion followed.

For another thing, I never said it was smiles and cupcakes here. I said I thought people do a decent job, and people have usually been respectful, in my experience. If you can pull up a one-liner from a troll, I personally don't think that destroys my point, but if in your opinion it does, so be it. You can voice your opinion; I was doing nothing more than voicing mine.

But I think, rather than turning the attention on me, we should realize that LadyRai is the one essentially making the claim of "smiles and cupcakes" in the Angelic Ruin guild. (though I wouldn't have used that term, but I'm just highlighting the irony here that I'm the one being accused of it.)

I just felt that people should be aware that there is plenty of fighting and bickering and insults in that guild, particularly since some of it comes from the captain. People can decide for themselves, of course, and my goal was to help them in that decision. Since I felt she was misrepresenting the guild, I put up another opinion's representation of it. When the captain of an "accepting and understanding" guild is accusing others of being "idiots," "zealots," and not having "a good head on their shoulders," simply because they believe differently than she does, then I feel that it's a rather unfair representation to say the guild's really about "unity and coexisting peacefully."

-xXLady RaiXx-

1. Most of the topics that were in the general forum were DEBATES! I have spoken to Kimihiro many a times, and both him and I agree on that. However you shouldn't be so quick to judge me when you have that giant beam in your eye. ~_^

Debates are fine of course. And my intent wasn't to judge you, I was just pointing out that, besides simply debating, there are also plenty of insults and stereotyping going on in the guild as well. I did so only because I thought Angelic Ruin was being misrepresented to the readers in this thread, because it's claimed to be a guild of peaceful coexistence. I personally don't think insults match that description. That is my opinion, and I was sharing it so that if others were of the same opinion, my post could be of use to them.

You say I have a giant beam in my eye; I assume your meaning is that you think it's hypocritical of me to point out that you insult others, when I myself am far more insulting. If you feel I have been insulting to you or others, I do apologize, that has never been my goal. I have actually tried very hard, in all my posts here, to avoid any personal insult and to defend others who have been insulted, regardless of what side of debate they were on. If you really think that I have a beam in my eye, then please point out what I've done so wrongly, so that I can correct my behavior. I am honestly not aware of it, and would consider it a favor to be made aware.

-xXLady RaiXx-

2. We're looking for people that aren't people who think there is only one way. We're looking for intelligent people who want to know more. I know Kimihiro can be quite close-minded as an atheist. But he is good at upholding rules. Which is why he's there. I do not want there to be constant flame wars there. Which is why I asked my members what they would want, instead of making it a decision myself. Why? Because it is also their guild and the people should be able to voice what they want.

That's fine that that's what you're looking for. Just be aware that you shouldn't disrespect people who do think there is only one way. Since that is, after all, the doctrine of every major world religion: that there is only one way. If you want to reject everyone who believes there is only one way, then you're rejecting anyone who follows the traditional teachings of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and so on. There's nothing wrong with you making a guild for the purpose of discussions between people who don't believe there is only one way. But please, don't consider someone to be a mere idiot or a zealot just because they do feel assured of their own faith.

I also feel it's inaccurate to say your guild is open to believers of every religion, when believers in Christianity do indeed believe that Christ is the one and only way to salvation, and you just said that's not the kind of person you're looking for in the guild. (Your statement also seems to imply that such a person isn't intelligent). "We're looking for people that aren't people who think there is only one way. We're looking for intelligent people who want to know more."

-xXLady RaiXx-

3. The Bible is not meant to be taken literally. And I do stand by what I said because I have encountered Christians that take the Bible too literally and couldn't distinguish reality from fiction. And because of that, those people decide to judge others as they see fit. When in reality they should be watching their own actions.

If you believe that the Bible is not meant to be taken literally, you are certainly free to believe that. I believe that saying someone "doesn't have a good head on their shoulders" if they take the Bible literally, is not an example of open-mindedness.

This is beside the point, but I do want to clarify about the issue of Bible literalism. The Bible intends itself to be taken literally; it is written as a historical narrative and it has always been the Christian belief that the Bible records true events. There are parts of the Bible that are in different genres, such as poetry or prophesy, where figurative language is used, and in those cases the author expects you to take the meaning figuratively. (For example, Christ was not a literal lamb, and we won't literally fly on eagle's wings when we're in heaven.) But even figurative sections have meanings that are very real; for example, Christ being called a lamb, although figurative, is meant to portray the very literal meaning that Christ was innocent, humble, and pure. Also, sections of the Bible that are the historical genre or the didactic genre (such as the letters of the New Testament), were intended to be taken very literally and have always been taken literally by the vast majority of Christians for the past 2,000 years.

Again, if you don't believe the Bible should be taken literally, that is your belief, and please respect others who have a different belief. The heads on their shoulders are, I'm sure, perfectly fine.

Of course there are people who interpret the Bible wrongly, who take their wrong interpretations to extremes, who judge others unfairly, and so on. I agree with you there, such people do exist. But I do believe, that when we're discussing with such a person, we should still avoid insulting them, especially if our goal is peaceful coexistence and deeper understanding.

-xXLady RaiXx-

It's one thing to believe in the Bible. It's another to let it take complete control of your life, to the point that you lost connection with your own humanity. Which is what I have seen happen to many Christians and it saddens me. It's sweet that you "care" however, all you've said is nothing but libel. It'd be better to let people look at it for themselves. They don't need you to tell them what they should look for. You're not their representative. Christ is. :3

I'm not telling people what to look for any more than you are. You wanted to get people to go to your guild and you gave them your representation on it. I think that representation is inaccurate, so I tried to shed some light on a different opinion of its representation. Notice, though, that I never told anyone not to go to your guild. And if I had, it wouldn't have been wrong of me, just like it isn't wrong of you to ask people to go to it. "It'd be better to let people look at it for themselves." Of course, and that's why I provided a link to it, remember?

I also wasn't simply bringing libel against you. Libel is a false and malicious representation brought to the public in order to damage someone's reputation. My post was not libel because 1. It was not false, it was direct quotes. 2. I didn't bring it to the public, it was already publicly available in the forum; and 3. the purpose wasn't against your reputation, but to challenge your representation of the Angelic Ruin guild. The only reason I used quotes from you was because otherwise, my post would have been baseless and pointless. I also provided the link to the source, so that anyone could go and see for themselves to form their own opinion. My post was out of honest intentions, I'm truly sorry if it offended anyone. I am rather saddened that I need to defend it against sarcastic eye rolls and accusations of libel.


The goal of having a guild for the purpose of mature, intelligent discussion between people of varying beliefs is, doubtless, a noble one. I just don't see that the Angelic Ruin guild matches that description at this point in time, and I personally wouldn't feel accepted there at all. From what I've read in it, I would expect to be insulted and belittled for my beliefs there. I do hope it develops beyond that to achieve it's goal of cultivating respectful discussion, and I would love to be a part of it when that happens. =)  

[Act of Random Kindness]

mad D I actually found people fighting over if they were fighting or not, lol. Best thing ever.


But more to the point, I'm for the idea. I'll join and see if we can't start some unity.  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Ugh. I'm not in the mood to quote your post, Crimson, nothing against you. I'm having a bad morning due to family drama. -.-

Anyways,

First of all to clarify, it's Rai. The Lady Rai is spaced but you don't have to call me Lady Rai if you don't want to. It's a nickname a good friend calls me. And it's also what a crazy pagan called me a few times. And he was indeed insane and creepy. o.o

We all have short fuses, mine is shorter on certain circumstances. It's not what your post said that was insulting but it was how you said it.

I'm not insulting people who do believe that, there are a few people in the guild that do believe in there being in one way. They don't push it on others though. They aren't out for conversions. If they were assured in their faith they wouldn't feel threatened by non-believers nor would they want to convert them.

There are believers that want to learn about other religions and don't like the constant fighting you see in the Extended Discussion or General Discussion. Again, there are people that do believe in the one way, but they want to learn more about other religions. Some of the Christians I have met and talked to on Gaia don't want to learn about religions because they claim to know about it because of what they learned from their pastors and what not. However that information is often biased and inaccurate. We want to give people unbiased and accurate info. We want people who want to learn vs people who think they know what a religion is about because they learned it from a pastor.

It's written by using figurative language. Name one historical account that uses metaphors, similies, allegories, etc. neutral However there are people that do believe that Jesus was a lamb and that we'll have wings and that we should be empty shells for God. o.o (I don't even know if that last bit is what God wants, but they do proclaim it) And there are people that use it for their own goals. I dislike those kinds of people. I try to calmly talk to them however they start to wear on my patience at times. Which is why I get belligerent at times.

Like I said we're new. We might not have what you're looking for instantly. But eventually we will. (Hopefully) However even if you get insulted, it's still a test of your faith. I think somewhere in the Bible it says that you should welcome a test of your faith because it shows that your faith is stronger or something. If you don't like that your faith being tested, then it shows your faith is weak. Again it's scriptural. I just don't memorize Bible verses that well. sweatdrop  

[Tornadomaster_Auron]

Ladies, Gentlemen, people of genders I did not include in my earlier statement, we aren't here to discuss who is right and who is wrong. The guild has a truly worthwhile purpose.

Unity.

It is something not seen that often on Gaia. People overcome with racial stereotypes and religious differences. The guild Lady Rei is advertising is all about trying to quell that. I firmly believe in that kind of unity.