Welcome to Gaia! ::

Saving Christianity from Christians

Back to Guilds

a Guild for teh eBil liberals 

Tags: Liberal, Christian, Exegesis, Study 

Reply Main Forum
Lack of experiential understanding Goto Page: 1 2 [>] [»|]

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

rmcdra
Captain

Loved Seeker

11,700 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Partygoer 500
  • Contributor 150
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:48 pm


One of the big things I think that modern Christianity lacks is experiential understanding of their religion. I mean Christianity is a religion, not a philosophy. I find it quite foolish when I hear people say I don't have a religion, its my faith, which is true but at the same time the people who say this have no clue what that means. There is supernatural s**t that cannot be explained within it, and no I am not taking about Jesus toast. I'm talking about supernatural stuff that truly humbles an individual and makes them know of what the Scriptures mean. The Scriptures and rituals have a deeper meaning than just the words and actions. It's sad that much of the rituals are reduced to mere symbolism, which on some levels it is but the rituals are more than just that. They were designed with the intention of bringing an experiential understanding of what God is.

Also the distrust of looking inward is also something I see as a failing. We can't trust looking inward because it will make us prey to Satan, WTF, seriously? Even without the Gnostic Texts, the Bible does say that we are to look inward to find the Kingdom of Heaven. For it is written:
Luke 17:20-21
20Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;

21nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Religion is supposed to help a person develop spiritually and come to a better understanding of themselves and the world in which they live but empty words and empty actions cannot do that.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:31 am


Personally, I think that Mormonism does pretty awesome in this field, what with the Gnostic-flavored temple ordinances that members are expected to attend throughout their life. Fundamentally, the endowment ceremony is an experiential learning activity, and one learns more about God, the Universe, and Everything by going through it again, and again, and again...

I've also found that the general Church leadership leans pretty heavily on meditation and personal prayer. I mean, what with counseling members to pray on their own to figure out how they feel about certain things, seeking individual revelation and so forth.

Although one could get just as much experiential learning by personal prayer and meditation and just paying attention to what's going on around them. God works in mysterious ways, it is said, and even the everyday is suffused by the presence of God.

Boxy


rmcdra
Captain

Loved Seeker

11,700 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Partygoer 500
  • Contributor 150
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:18 pm


And neither are the Episcopals either. It just seems that so many groups are afraid of violating Sola Scriptura that they loose some significant parts of the religion.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:34 am


Chaucer's Wife of Bath proclaimed that she was guided by "Experience, and none [not] auctorite [authority]".

Wesley said that we should be guided by experience, reason, tradition, and Biblical authority. he was kind of an innovator in stressing the importance of personal religious experience; Anglicans and Calvinists therefore mocked his followers as overemotional "enthusiasts".

chessiejo


rmcdra
Captain

Loved Seeker

11,700 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Partygoer 500
  • Contributor 150
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:09 pm


chessiejo
Chaucer's Wife of Bath proclaimed that she was guided by "Experience, and none [not] auctorite [authority]".

Wesley said that we should be guided by experience, reason, tradition, and Biblical authority. he was kind of an innovator in stressing the importance of personal religious experience; Anglicans and Calvinists therefore mocked his followers as overemotional "enthusiasts".

Unfortunately there are leaders in Methodist Church that do not stress experience.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:16 am


we were methodist for awhile, before becoming mennonite.

it is so ironic that their leaders think they have become "modern and businesslike" by conducting mergers, doing harsh performance evaluation, bottom line analysis, whipping the staff into shape, all the while ignoring their mission and their spiritual task...

and in the meantime, the big MBA programs are emphasizing mission and values and personal excellence.

what a contrast.

chessiejo


Vasilius Konstantinos

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:07 pm


Well -the problem I find is that most people take their faith off of what they have heard mostly and not by researching it and experiencing it for themselves. This was the issue I had before I went on my little journey which was to find out if I believed based on my own understanding or by the understanding of what my family believed. When I finally came through I found myself in the Greek Orthodox Church studying Liturgics and openly laughing at my Sola Scriptura friends who I believe threw the baby out with the bathwater.

On another note it is also important, in my opinion, that we lean not so much on emotionalism in the faith as per say the obedience to follow though on what may become a mystical journey towards Theosis. People often seek out a feeling, an emotion, instead of direct observance towards union. In prayer we sit in silence waiting for the Holy Spirit to come upon us, and as many have experienced a huge emotional outpouring upon them, wailing and throwing themselves to and fro like an epileptic. oddly, according to the Early Church Fathers and several Sainted Monks in the Eastern Church The Holy Spirit "falls upon us as the morning dew, soft and quiet, as we envelope Him in complete awe and obedience. he enters into us, giving us understanding and complete peace(paraphrase mine)". Emotional diatribe as I once experienced is sadly something which many of our Charismatic brothers and Sisters believe to be the set of the day, emphasizing a very strongly led worship service and music to set the mood for the emotional control. Sadly Silence is better for the HOly SPirit to speak to us, than to raise our hands and rol around the floor or hang around the rafters in a a fit of utterings some call tongues.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:13 am


Vasilius Konstantinos
Well -the problem I find is that most people take their faith off of what they have heard mostly and not by researching it and experiencing it for themselves. This was the issue I had before I went on my little journey which was to find out if I believed based on my own understanding or by the understanding of what my family believed. When I finally came through I found myself in the Greek Orthodox Church studying Liturgics and openly laughing at my Sola Scriptura friends who I believe threw the baby out with the bathwater.

On another note it is also important, in my opinion, that we lean not so much on emotionalism in the faith as per say the obedience to follow though on what may become a mystical journey towards Theosis. People often seek out a feeling, an emotion, instead of direct observance towards union. In prayer we sit in silence waiting for the Holy Spirit to come upon us, and as many have experienced a huge emotional outpouring upon them, wailing and throwing themselves to and fro like an epileptic. oddly, according to the Early Church Fathers and several Sainted Monks in the Eastern Church The Holy Spirit "falls upon us as the morning dew, soft and quiet, as we envelope Him in complete awe and obedience. he enters into us, giving us understanding and complete peace(paraphrase mine)". Emotional diatribe as I once experienced is sadly something which many of our Charismatic brothers and Sisters believe to be the set of the day, emphasizing a very strongly led worship service and music to set the mood for the emotional control. Sadly Silence is better for the HOly SPirit to speak to us, than to raise our hands and rol around the floor or hang around the rafters in a a fit of utterings some call tongues.
Wasn't there a part where the Holy Spirit first came to Jesus's followers, and it was described as entering the house like a great wind, blowing open the shutters and doors, and they became able to speak in different languages? Then another time it has been described as flame about their heads (unless I'm misremembering).

Silence is well and good, but music and dancing can be just as receptive to the spirit. The Spirit is what lead many of Jesus's apostles as they spread his teachings. It would come down and take them to where they were next needed. If there Spirit were so relegated to complacent thought, would it be described as being so vigorous?

The answer I think is that it is neither one, nor the other, but can be either as needed and depending upon the person recieving it.

You may only be able to recieve the spirit in quiet, but don't think that because you have not felt the swelling fire suffuse your body that it is not possible. That is when you take your own Truth in God and expect it to be the same for all, and this just makes no sense.

Gho the Girl


Vasilius Konstantinos

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:25 am


Gho the Girl
Vasilius Konstantinos
Well -the problem I find is that most people take their faith off of what they have heard mostly and not by researching it and experiencing it for themselves. This was the issue I had before I went on my little journey which was to find out if I believed based on my own understanding or by the understanding of what my family believed. When I finally came through I found myself in the Greek Orthodox Church studying Liturgics and openly laughing at my Sola Scriptura friends who I believe threw the baby out with the bathwater.

On another note it is also important, in my opinion, that we lean not so much on emotionalism in the faith as per say the obedience to follow though on what may become a mystical journey towards Theosis. People often seek out a feeling, an emotion, instead of direct observance towards union. In prayer we sit in silence waiting for the Holy Spirit to come upon us, and as many have experienced a huge emotional outpouring upon them, wailing and throwing themselves to and fro like an epileptic. oddly, according to the Early Church Fathers and several Sainted Monks in the Eastern Church The Holy Spirit "falls upon us as the morning dew, soft and quiet, as we envelope Him in complete awe and obedience. he enters into us, giving us understanding and complete peace(paraphrase mine)". Emotional diatribe as I once experienced is sadly something which many of our Charismatic brothers and Sisters believe to be the set of the day, emphasizing a very strongly led worship service and music to set the mood for the emotional control. Sadly Silence is better for the HOly SPirit to speak to us, than to raise our hands and rol around the floor or hang around the rafters in a a fit of utterings some call tongues.
Wasn't there a part where the Holy Spirit first came to Jesus's followers, and it was described as entering the house like a great wind, blowing open the shutters and doors, and they became able to speak in different languages? Then another time it has been described as flame about their heads (unless I'm misremembering).

Silence is well and good, but music and dancing can be just as receptive to the spirit. The Spirit is what lead many of Jesus's apostles as they spread his teachings. It would come down and take them to where they were next needed. If there Spirit were so relegated to complacent thought, would it be described as being so vigorous?

The answer I think is that it is neither one, nor the other, but can be either as needed and depending upon the person recieving it.

You may only be able to recieve the spirit in quiet, but don't think that because you have not felt the swelling fire suffuse your body that it is not possible. That is when you take your own Truth in God and expect it to be the same for all, and this just makes no sense.


In the Acts of the Apostles yes the Holy Spirit burst open doors, caused what some would call chaos and utterings which in turn made many look upon the Apostles and the Disciples as "drunkards". The flame was a testament of the Holy Spirit's arrival, as has been taught by the Early Church Fathers. The tongues, not utterings of some spiritual language as what is practiced today were actual spoken languages many nearby were able to understand as a testimony of the Truth of Jesus Christ. Other than this I could understand exactly how my comment earlier would be misunderstood.

Emotionalism, which has been shown to be the case for today is rampant, and needs to be examined. Many people, myself included came from a Pentecostal Evangelical Spiriti-Filled background. I was also a licensed Minister who preached a Full Gospel ministry aplying the Gifts of the Spirit, raising hands and uttering in a spiritual language, and I am awitness firsthand that this is not the Holy Spirit but an emotional outpouring; though sincere it is not the Holy Spirit.

The Ascetic Monastics, who would glow with a bright hue while in prayer, documented that the Holy Spirit would come upon them softly and gently, like a soft, gentle morning dew. This is one example of non-emotionalism that shows us the Holy Spirit working in people's lives.

Even in some Gnostic circles I knew in Southern California they would seek out a non-emotional practice of prayer and worship. Asceticism was praised among the Gnostic circles abroad.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:52 pm


Vasilius Konstantinos
Gho the Girl
Vasilius Konstantinos
Well -the problem I find is that most people take their faith off of what they have heard mostly and not by researching it and experiencing it for themselves. This was the issue I had before I went on my little journey which was to find out if I believed based on my own understanding or by the understanding of what my family believed. When I finally came through I found myself in the Greek Orthodox Church studying Liturgics and openly laughing at my Sola Scriptura friends who I believe threw the baby out with the bathwater.

On another note it is also important, in my opinion, that we lean not so much on emotionalism in the faith as per say the obedience to follow though on what may become a mystical journey towards Theosis. People often seek out a feeling, an emotion, instead of direct observance towards union. In prayer we sit in silence waiting for the Holy Spirit to come upon us, and as many have experienced a huge emotional outpouring upon them, wailing and throwing themselves to and fro like an epileptic. oddly, according to the Early Church Fathers and several Sainted Monks in the Eastern Church The Holy Spirit "falls upon us as the morning dew, soft and quiet, as we envelope Him in complete awe and obedience. he enters into us, giving us understanding and complete peace(paraphrase mine)". Emotional diatribe as I once experienced is sadly something which many of our Charismatic brothers and Sisters believe to be the set of the day, emphasizing a very strongly led worship service and music to set the mood for the emotional control. Sadly Silence is better for the HOly SPirit to speak to us, than to raise our hands and rol around the floor or hang around the rafters in a a fit of utterings some call tongues.
Wasn't there a part where the Holy Spirit first came to Jesus's followers, and it was described as entering the house like a great wind, blowing open the shutters and doors, and they became able to speak in different languages? Then another time it has been described as flame about their heads (unless I'm misremembering).

Silence is well and good, but music and dancing can be just as receptive to the spirit. The Spirit is what lead many of Jesus's apostles as they spread his teachings. It would come down and take them to where they were next needed. If there Spirit were so relegated to complacent thought, would it be described as being so vigorous?

The answer I think is that it is neither one, nor the other, but can be either as needed and depending upon the person recieving it.

You may only be able to recieve the spirit in quiet, but don't think that because you have not felt the swelling fire suffuse your body that it is not possible. That is when you take your own Truth in God and expect it to be the same for all, and this just makes no sense.


In the Acts of the Apostles yes the Holy Spirit burst open doors, caused what some would call chaos and utterings which in turn made many look upon the Apostles and the Disciples as "drunkards". The flame was a testament of the Holy Spirit's arrival, as has been taught by the Early Church Fathers. The tongues, not utterings of some spiritual language as what is practiced today were actual spoken languages many nearby were able to understand as a testimony of the Truth of Jesus Christ. Other than this I could understand exactly how my comment earlier would be misunderstood.

Emotionalism, which has been shown to be the case for today is rampant, and needs to be examined. Many people, myself included came from a Pentecostal Evangelical Spiriti-Filled background. I was also a licensed Minister who preached a Full Gospel ministry aplying the Gifts of the Spirit, raising hands and uttering in a spiritual language, and I am awitness firsthand that this is not the Holy Spirit but an emotional outpouring; though sincere it is not the Holy Spirit.
By what authority do you deem "not the Holy Spirit"? Mayhaps the Spirit does not move you in that way. But what gives you the congnizance to know that the spirit does not move others in that way?
Quote:


The Ascetic Monastics, who would glow with a bright hue while in prayer, documented that the Holy Spirit would come upon them softly and gently, like a soft, gentle morning dew. This is one example of non-emotionalism that shows us the Holy Spirit working in people's lives.
The existance of bran muffins does not negate the existance of blueberry muffins.
Quote:


Even in some Gnostic circles I knew in Southern California they would seek out a non-emotional practice of prayer and worship. Asceticism was praised among the Gnostic circles abroad.
And?

Are you saying there's only one path to God? Only one understanding? Only one approach?

Gho the Girl


rmcdra
Captain

Loved Seeker

11,700 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Partygoer 500
  • Contributor 150
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:36 pm


Vasilius Konstantinos

In the Acts of the Apostles yes the Holy Spirit burst open doors, caused what some would call chaos and utterings which in turn made many look upon the Apostles and the Disciples as "drunkards". The flame was a testament of the Holy Spirit's arrival, as has been taught by the Early Church Fathers. The tongues, not utterings of some spiritual language as what is practiced today were actual spoken languages many nearby were able to understand as a testimony of the Truth of Jesus Christ. Other than this I could understand exactly how my comment earlier would be misunderstood.

Emotionalism, which has been shown to be the case for today is rampant, and needs to be examined. Many people, myself included came from a Pentecostal Evangelical Spiriti-Filled background. I was also a licensed Minister who preached a Full Gospel ministry aplying the Gifts of the Spirit, raising hands and uttering in a spiritual language, and I am awitness firsthand that this is not the Holy Spirit but an emotional outpouring; though sincere it is not the Holy Spirit.

The Ascetic Monastics, who would glow with a bright hue while in prayer, documented that the Holy Spirit would come upon them softly and gently, like a soft, gentle morning dew. This is one example of non-emotionalism that shows us the Holy Spirit working in people's lives.

Even in some Gnostic circles I knew in Southern California they would seek out a non-emotional practice of prayer and worship. Asceticism was praised among the Gnostic circles abroad.

I think some things should be defined to help clarify things. I understand where you're coming from on your argument but Gho raise some good points. How can one tell the difference between the false spirit, as my tradition calls it, and the Holy Spirit? I do know the standard answer is that you'll know and while true, it doesn't explain a lot could you try to put it in to words if possible? Why do you believe that rituals in the Pentecostal Church, and similar churches, cannot bring the Holy Spirit into an individual? While I do know that a stillness of mind is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit, why do the rituals of the Pentecostal Church and churches with similar rituals, not bring the stillness necessary to see the Light or at least feel that connection with everything, the Lower Sophia?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:06 am


chessiejo
we were methodist for awhile, before becoming mennonite.

it is so ironic that their leaders think they have become "modern and businesslike" by conducting mergers, doing harsh performance evaluation, bottom line analysis, whipping the staff into shape, all the while ignoring their mission and their spiritual task...

and in the meantime, the big MBA programs are emphasizing mission and values and personal excellence.

what a contrast.
I know much of the ritual aspect has been removed or severely cut. I mean Holy Communion is only offered once a month and is stressed very heavily to be only symbolic. Also the Methodist Church's official formal worship is usually offered once a week.

rmcdra
Captain

Loved Seeker

11,700 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Partygoer 500
  • Contributor 150

Vasilius Konstantinos

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:57 pm


Gho the Girl
Vasilius Konstantinos
Gho the Girl
Vasilius Konstantinos
Well -the problem I find is that most people take their faith off of what they have heard mostly and not by researching it and experiencing it for themselves. This was the issue I had before I went on my little journey which was to find out if I believed based on my own understanding or by the understanding of what my family believed. When I finally came through I found myself in the Greek Orthodox Church studying Liturgics and openly laughing at my Sola Scriptura friends who I believe threw the baby out with the bathwater.

On another note it is also important, in my opinion, that we lean not so much on emotionalism in the faith as per say the obedience to follow though on what may become a mystical journey towards Theosis. People often seek out a feeling, an emotion, instead of direct observance towards union. In prayer we sit in silence waiting for the Holy Spirit to come upon us, and as many have experienced a huge emotional outpouring upon them, wailing and throwing themselves to and fro like an epileptic. oddly, according to the Early Church Fathers and several Sainted Monks in the Eastern Church The Holy Spirit "falls upon us as the morning dew, soft and quiet, as we envelope Him in complete awe and obedience. he enters into us, giving us understanding and complete peace(paraphrase mine)". Emotional diatribe as I once experienced is sadly something which many of our Charismatic brothers and Sisters believe to be the set of the day, emphasizing a very strongly led worship service and music to set the mood for the emotional control. Sadly Silence is better for the HOly SPirit to speak to us, than to raise our hands and rol around the floor or hang around the rafters in a a fit of utterings some call tongues.
Wasn't there a part where the Holy Spirit first came to Jesus's followers, and it was described as entering the house like a great wind, blowing open the shutters and doors, and they became able to speak in different languages? Then another time it has been described as flame about their heads (unless I'm misremembering).

Silence is well and good, but music and dancing can be just as receptive to the spirit. The Spirit is what lead many of Jesus's apostles as they spread his teachings. It would come down and take them to where they were next needed. If there Spirit were so relegated to complacent thought, would it be described as being so vigorous?

The answer I think is that it is neither one, nor the other, but can be either as needed and depending upon the person recieving it.

You may only be able to recieve the spirit in quiet, but don't think that because you have not felt the swelling fire suffuse your body that it is not possible. That is when you take your own Truth in God and expect it to be the same for all, and this just makes no sense.


In the Acts of the Apostles yes the Holy Spirit burst open doors, caused what some would call chaos and utterings which in turn made many look upon the Apostles and the Disciples as "drunkards". The flame was a testament of the Holy Spirit's arrival, as has been taught by the Early Church Fathers. The tongues, not utterings of some spiritual language as what is practiced today were actual spoken languages many nearby were able to understand as a testimony of the Truth of Jesus Christ. Other than this I could understand exactly how my comment earlier would be misunderstood.

Emotionalism, which has been shown to be the case for today is rampant, and needs to be examined. Many people, myself included came from a Pentecostal Evangelical Spiriti-Filled background. I was also a licensed Minister who preached a Full Gospel ministry aplying the Gifts of the Spirit, raising hands and uttering in a spiritual language, and I am awitness firsthand that this is not the Holy Spirit but an emotional outpouring; though sincere it is not the Holy Spirit.
By what authority do you deem "not the Holy Spirit"? Mayhaps the Spirit does not move you in that way. But what gives you the congnizance to know that the spirit does not move others in that way?
Quote:


The Ascetic Monastics, who would glow with a bright hue while in prayer, documented that the Holy Spirit would come upon them softly and gently, like a soft, gentle morning dew. This is one example of non-emotionalism that shows us the Holy Spirit working in people's lives.
The existance of bran muffins does not negate the existance of blueberry muffins.
Quote:


Even in some Gnostic circles I knew in Southern California they would seek out a non-emotional practice of prayer and worship. Asceticism was praised among the Gnostic circles abroad.
And?

Are you saying there's only one path to God? Only one understanding? Only one approach?


The Authority is the Early Church Fathers who, if you are a Gnostic, would not recognize anyways.

Bran or Blueberry, both are muffins. The issue is more than what you have just implied.

Yes I am saying there is only one path on the way to God. To say otherwise would be Universalism.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:05 pm


rmcdra
Vasilius Konstantinos

In the Acts of the Apostles yes the Holy Spirit burst open doors, caused what some would call chaos and utterings which in turn made many look upon the Apostles and the Disciples as "drunkards". The flame was a testament of the Holy Spirit's arrival, as has been taught by the Early Church Fathers. The tongues, not utterings of some spiritual language as what is practiced today were actual spoken languages many nearby were able to understand as a testimony of the Truth of Jesus Christ. Other than this I could understand exactly how my comment earlier would be misunderstood.

Emotionalism, which has been shown to be the case for today is rampant, and needs to be examined. Many people, myself included came from a Pentecostal Evangelical Spiriti-Filled background. I was also a licensed Minister who preached a Full Gospel ministry aplying the Gifts of the Spirit, raising hands and uttering in a spiritual language, and I am awitness firsthand that this is not the Holy Spirit but an emotional outpouring; though sincere it is not the Holy Spirit.

The Ascetic Monastics, who would glow with a bright hue while in prayer, documented that the Holy Spirit would come upon them softly and gently, like a soft, gentle morning dew. This is one example of non-emotionalism that shows us the Holy Spirit working in people's lives.

Even in some Gnostic circles I knew in Southern California they would seek out a non-emotional practice of prayer and worship. Asceticism was praised among the Gnostic circles abroad.

I think some things should be defined to help clarify things. I understand where you're coming from on your argument but Gho raise some good points. How can one tell the difference between the false spirit, as my tradition calls it, and the Holy Spirit? I do know the standard answer is that you'll know and while true, it doesn't explain a lot could you try to put it in to words if possible? Why do you believe that rituals in the Pentecostal Church, and similar churches, cannot bring the Holy Spirit into an individual? While I do know that a stillness of mind is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit, why do the rituals of the Pentecostal Church and churches with similar rituals, not bring the stillness necessary to see the Light or at least feel that connection with everything, the Lower Sophia?


Well the standard answer would not apply either. The case is simple: we have documentation and experiences of Theosis through the Church for close to two thousand years, and a Monastic Practice for over seventeen hundred years which has brought forth multiple amounts of wisdom for those who seek to experience God in His fullness. All of a sudden some people start creating mutterings and sounds, then calling upon a "Heavenly Language" which is vomited out during services in some communities and now that's the Charismatic Movement and the Holy Spirit. This Movement has only been around in strength for one century- some mutter about one hundred fifty years.Now God has changed his approaches to suit the people? We change to His will, not vice~versa.

Vasilius Konstantinos

Reply
Main Forum

Goto Page: 1 2 [>] [»|]
 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum