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 Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:33 pm
You wanted this Val, so I'll see what you have to say
I'm a strong advocate in saying that poverty is the number one reason for poverty crime. On NPR, when they interviewed a REAL pirate, he DOES NOT want to be a pirate, yet because he is so poor, he must do this in order to survive. That is the same reason why most people must steal, deal drugs, and other crimes, because they just want to get back. But, this is only probably 50% of criminals. The rest, drug lords, psychotics, assassins, have either mental issues, in which they should be sent to rehab, not jail, and people wanting to enrich themselves.
I believe that if poverty were to be eliminated, most of the crime would be eradicated. I also believe that our generation (my generation) is falling apart. More people are doing drugs, and students have been getting into even more trouble...
So...
What do we do?
I believe that we must raise standards of living by attempting to give equality to all. Those that choose to push away opportunity for material, deserve suffering. So, this will eliminate pork.
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:34 pm
Humans need basic necessities to survive. Poverty prevents people getting these things legitimately, so they need to "bypass" the system to get them.
Poverty is a required part of society though. Despite what capitalists want you to believe, you cannot have a society filled with rich people. The most you can do is provide outlets for them to get the necessities. If you do that, you can at least simulate middle class life for everyone.
It'll cost a lot though. More than keeping people in jail, unfortunately.
And on the topic of jail, that's where this poverty thing gets really ridiculous. They get fed and housed better in prison than they do at home often. It's practically heaven for them. And we wonder why they commit crimes.
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:40 pm
Thanks, I didn't know poverty was the number one reason for poverty. (Fix that little sentence in your first post.)
And poverty is a reason tfor crime, but some people just get a thrill out of doing something illegal. I know plenty of people who aren't destitute (including me) who still shoplift just for the hell of it. Maybe poverty is the leading cause for doing a crime, but there are people who do the crime just because they can.
I won't be here to argue my point, btw.
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:56 pm
Valheita Humans need basic necessities to survive. Poverty prevents people getting these things legitimately, so they need to "bypass" the system to get them. Poverty is a required part of society though. Despite what capitalists want you to believe, you cannot have a society filled with rich people. The most you can do is provide outlets for them to get the necessities. If you do that, you can at least simulate middle class life for everyone. It'll cost a lot though. More than keeping people in jail, unfortunately. And on the topic of jail, that's where this poverty thing gets really ridiculous. They get fed and housed better in prison than they do at home often. It's practically heaven for them. And we wonder why they commit crimes. Exactly Instead of creating more prisons, why don't we create housing? They can try to find legit work, and they will also meet people. And not be in risk or put people to risk. My point is, people don't need to rob eachother if there is no need to. Now, how wouldn't you not need money? Without having it @Raven: OH s**t Whoops
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:01 pm
SoulSkourer Exactly Instead of creating more prisons, why don't we create housing? They can try to find legit work, and they will also meet people. And not be in risk or put people to risk. My point is, people don't need to rob eachother if there is no need to. Now, how wouldn't you not need money? Without having it Well, quite aside from the fact we're in recession, most governments are capitalist, which means that the poor are poor because they choose to be, not because society requires them to be.
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:08 pm
Valheita SoulSkourer Exactly Instead of creating more prisons, why don't we create housing? They can try to find legit work, and they will also meet people. And not be in risk or put people to risk. My point is, people don't need to rob eachother if there is no need to. Now, how wouldn't you not need money? Without having it Well, quite aside from the fact we're in recession, most governments are capitalist, which means that the poor are poor because they choose to be, not because society requires them to be. The first generation chose to be poor with bad choices But what about the next? Of course, I have two competing ideas for this: A- They should be given a new opportunity, because they didn't do anything B- Born in a society in hell, they should be eliminated, better for the all of us, because it will help subdue the food crisis
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:10 pm
SoulSkourer The first generation chose to be poor with bad choices But what about the next? Of course, I have two competing ideas for this: A- They should be given a new opportunity, because they didn't do anything B- Born in a society in hell, they should be eliminated, better for the all of us, because it will help subdue the food crisis Perhaps I should clarify. It's the government's that believe they choose to be poor. There are a lot of good reasons to kill someone, but being born into poverty isn't one of them. Especially since that makes the assumption that every poor person is a criminal.
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:14 pm
Valheita SoulSkourer The first generation chose to be poor with bad choices But what about the next? Of course, I have two competing ideas for this: A- They should be given a new opportunity, because they didn't do anything B- Born in a society in hell, they should be eliminated, better for the all of us, because it will help subdue the food crisis Perhaps I should clarify. It's the government's that believe they choose to be poor. There are a lot of good reasons to kill someone, but being born into poverty isn't one of them. Especially since that makes the assumption that every poor person is a criminal. Of course not all poor people are criminals, and all criminals are poor people I already highlighted this: Some people that steal, cheat, and lie are filthy rich Look at Madoff Look at the drug lords The problem is, is that there is no democratic leader, at least in my knowledge, that ascended from the poor That is both good and bad. Good because they can't get corrupt by power as much, such as many times tyrants do But bad because they never knew what it was like to be poor I think the worse off is the stronger feeling from a poor person
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:18 pm
SoulSkourer Of course not all poor people are criminals, and all criminals are poor people I already highlighted this: Some people that steal, cheat, and lie are filthy rich Look at Madoff Look at the drug lords The problem is, is that there is no democratic leader, at least in my knowledge, that ascended from the poor That is both good and bad. Good because they can't get corrupt by power as much, such as many times tyrants do But bad because they never knew what it was like to be poor I think the worse off is the stronger feeling from a poor person 1) Yes, I realise. But to improve the world by killing them off is to imply that they are all criminals. 2) Poverty isn't necessarily the cause of crime, but it's certainly a medium through which it can spread. You don't have to be born poor to realise that they need help. I'm middle class, and I still know that they need medical support and the like.
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:21 pm
Valheita SoulSkourer Of course not all poor people are criminals, and all criminals are poor people I already highlighted this: Some people that steal, cheat, and lie are filthy rich Look at Madoff Look at the drug lords The problem is, is that there is no democratic leader, at least in my knowledge, that ascended from the poor That is both good and bad. Good because they can't get corrupt by power as much, such as many times tyrants do But bad because they never knew what it was like to be poor I think the worse off is the stronger feeling from a poor person 1) Yes, I realise. But to improve the world by killing them off is to imply that they are all criminals. 2) Poverty isn't necessarily the cause of crime, but it's certainly a medium through which it can spread. You don't have to be born poor to realise that they need help. I'm middle class, and I still know that they need medical support and the like. You have sympathy But do you have empathy? I'm not the person that says we should get rid of the poor It is an idea that has gone back a long time, mainly by this person... I CAN'T REMEMBER HIS NAME But, he was made into Scrooge in A Christmas Carol
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:23 pm
SoulSkourer You have sympathy But do you have empathy? Not me. I've got Aspergers. Empathy is physically challenging for me even when I'm face to face.
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:41 pm
We are not a socialist society. Everyone has equal opportunity, but we cannot all be equal. We have to work for what we want and there programs that can help, but ultimately there shouldn't be hand outs. For example, we send money to Africa to help out their problems, they've become reliant on our donations and can't function without them. The thing is they aren't trying to better themselves or their society because why work when you get a check that you can live on?
The same happens in the US with welfare fraud and unlike a socialist country we won't be able to "persuade" people to do something without encroaching on their basic rights.
Poverty leads to more crime (it is the #1 reason) but eliminating will destroy the foundation of what are country is meant to be.
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:45 pm
Vajapocalypse We are not a socialist society. Everyone has equal opportunity, but we cannot all be equal. We have to work for what we want and there programs that can help, but ultimately there shouldn't be hand outs. For example, we send money to Africa to help out their problems, they've become reliant on our donations and can't function without them. The thing is they aren't trying to better themselves or their society because why work when you get a check that you can live on? The same happens in the US with welfare fraud and unlike a socialist country we won't be able to "persuade" people to do something without encroaching on their basic rights. Poverty leads to more crime (it is the #1 reason) but eliminating will destroy the foundation of what are country is meant to be. Typical capitalist. Assuming that everything has to come from a cheque book. talk2hand Subsidised health care is the first thing that springs to mind. Cheap, healthy government housing. Subsidised grocery costs for those at a low wage bracket. You don't have to give them more money to help them live, just make it easier for them to live with the money they do earn.
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:47 pm
So are you saying use those below you as a footstool for your own success?
I know that you can't have classes if everyone's the same, but when do you stop the division. Currently, around 50% of the world's wealth is in less than 1% of the population, and that number is growing. What do we do when a few thousand people control everything? The middle class is getting farther and farther away from the wealthy. We might not want to become a socialist state (which, frankly, wouldn't bother me at all), but we cannot become a dictatorship that's only interest is corporate.
Where does the line stop?
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:56 pm
Valheita Vajapocalypse We are not a socialist society. Everyone has equal opportunity, but we cannot all be equal. We have to work for what we want and there programs that can help, but ultimately there shouldn't be hand outs. For example, we send money to Africa to help out their problems, they've become reliant on our donations and can't function without them. The thing is they aren't trying to better themselves or their society because why work when you get a check that you can live on? The same happens in the US with welfare fraud and unlike a socialist country we won't be able to "persuade" people to do something without encroaching on their basic rights. Poverty leads to more crime (it is the #1 reason) but eliminating will destroy the foundation of what are country is meant to be. Typical capitalist. Assuming that everything has to come from a cheque book. talk2hand Subsidized health care is the first thing that springs to mind. Cheap, healthy government housing. Subsidized grocery costs for those at a low wage bracket. You don't have to give them more money to help them live, just make it easier for them to live with the money they do earn. Capitalist and proud. I am for nationalizing the healthcare system. My capitalist ways say no, but the situation says yes. It shouldn't be a business. When it's a business people suffer and there is nothing they can do about it. The problem with trying to keep them in a specific money limit is it limits person growth and need to rise out of your situation. "Live within your means" problem is people in poverty typically don't and make poor choices. SoulSkourer So are you saying use those below you as a footstool for your own success? I know that you can't have classes if everyone's the same, but when do you stop the division. Currently, around 50% of the world's wealth is in less than 1% of the population, and that number is growing. What do we do when a few thousand people control everything? The middle class is getting farther and farther away from the wealthy. We might not want to become a socialist state (which, frankly, wouldn't bother me at all), but we cannot become a dictatorship that's only interest is corporate. Where does the line stop? 1) I never said they should be used as a footstool for my own success. I said that giving hand outs leads to laziness and lack of motivation or worse, looking for the easy way out (selling drugs which many do). 2) A few thousand already do and I think they should be taxed heavily and go to thing like national health care and getting rid of national debt. 3) We will never become a dictatorship and a socialist society isn't some gleaming beacon of hope you seem to think it is. 4) What line?
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