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Eruravenne

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:17 pm


Ok, so I'm getting pretty bored here with nothing new to talk about concerning the series. So I started pondering various things. Like the language of Gallifrey. I don't know if it's been talked about in here already, but I looked back through the past five or six pages of threads and didn't see anything, at which time my laziness and impatience kicked in and I gave up.

Anyway, I thought it might be interesting to discuss theories about this particular bit of horrible continuity. The Gallifreyan language has looked different every time it was shown up until the new series where it changed even more drastically than ever, but at least remained the same from then on. Personally, I like the new version of the language better, as it looks more alien and less like a weird mix of Greek, Arabic and math with a few other things thrown in for good measure. Plus it's just cool.

But if I wanted to pretend that it all made sense in the series, I would say this. I think the Gallifreyans either have more than one alphabet that they switch between based on their mood or something, OR they actually have changed their alphabet several times since the beginning of the show.

I like the second one better. After all, Gallifrey apparently existed outside of normal time and who knows how many years passed by on the planet while the Doctor was out gallivanting across the universe. We know several hundred years passed for him personally during the run of the show. All the older versions of the writing looked at least somewhat similar, so perhaps it was a natural progression of the writing's form, much like how writing gradually changes here on Earth.

The third option is that most Time Lords' handwriting is just really that awful.

As for the new circle style writing, my only theory is that during the Time War, Gallifrey started writing in a new, coded alphabet that the Daleks wouldn't understand. Afterwards, the Doctor never switched back.

So, what do you think? I hope at least some of that made sense... Why is it that when we're tired and unable to think very well we feel compelled to make complex posts in forums? confused

Here's a good reference website for the stuff shown in the classic series:
http://nzdwfc.tetrap.com/archive/tsv41/oldhighgallifreyan.html
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:21 pm


Gallifrey is a whole planet after all, so it has different regions. Maybe they're just different alphabets for different countries/continents. And maybe the circle thing is just a time diagram or something? Like a map?
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knightofthe21stcentury


Eruravenne

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:48 pm


That's possible, too, but I was under the impression that Gallifrey was a planet with one city and a few scattered settlements in close proximity to said city like most other sci-fi planets. ninja

And the circle style is used extensively and exclusively in the new series, so I'm pretty sure it's meant to be the official language.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:47 pm


I think his handwriting IS just that awful.

He *is* the Doctor, after all. So it makes sense that his handwriting is bad. mrgreen

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Eruravenne

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:06 am


You're probably right... but I'm trying to have a not boring discussion here. wink
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:02 am


Okay, okay, I'm just sayin'. mrgreen

I do like the idea about changing after the Time War so Daleks couldn't read... I think Eight is involved somehow.. didn't he have some kinda memory loss or something? *hasn't seen the TV movie YET*

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Eruravenne

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:52 am


I haven't seen it either but I thought he got his memory back during the movie... I don't know. *shrug*

So I've been taking this far too seriously and I made a little... thing. It shows how at least some of the writings we've seen could have come from the same alphabet after all.

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

TADA!! Anyway, basically I've separated the symbols into groups at the top. Common means they're seen in at least two different writings and are therefore certainly all from the same alphabet.

The next group has the symbols seen only in the Five Doctors episode and identified as Old High Gallifreyan. However, some of the Old High symbols are also seen in other writings, so apparently not all of that particular alphabet has been forgotten. The ? group is symbols that I wasn't sure were Old High since I haven't seen that episode in a while and also the one at the end could just be a fancier looking version of the lightning bolt thing in the common group.

Next we have what was seen on the Rani's computer. Most of it looked rather weird and illegible to me, so I wasn't sure if I'd copied them correctly, hence the huge ? group.

Then, there's the things written by the Doctor himself. Not counting that long note from The Deadly Assassin... I'm not even attempting that. xp Anyway, those are from his calling card and the "dig hole here" note. The ?s are because I wasn't sure if the first one was supposed to be a > and if the second one was one letter or two.

Finally, there's the letters from the first time the language is ever shown on the screen. These seem more like random scribbly things, but the one on the end does resemble the letter Omega without the little thingies on the bottom. Don't you love my technical terms? razz

Next, I spent an ungodly amount of time combing through lists of mathematical symbols (and a much shorter time looking at Greek letters) to identify them in Gallifreyan. I found that contrary to wha is said on the website I posted, the calling card does not have the letter Theta on it at all, as I demonstrated. There is a version of Theta which has the line touching the edges, but it's an even skinnier oval and the line is still horizontal.

Some odd things I noticed here (though more than likely unintentional by whoever wrote these things for the show) are as follows:

1. The weird curvy four found in (possibly) Old High Gallifreyan looks exactly like an upside down symbol for Planck's Constant which is something in quantum physics having to do with photons (too lazy to type out the whole explanation). Could the fact that it's upside down have any meaning? Also, the number four used early on could be said to be the same letter, only changed and simplified since the days of Rassilon.

2. The Doctor's calling card contains the symbols for the empty set (symbolic? look it up on wikipedia and you'll see what I mean) and the speed of light in a vacuum (which is supposedly the speed where time stops) followed by Sigma, which is apparently part of his academy nickname. Most of the other symbols seem to be made up or meaningless, though...


So, there you have it. I'm crazy. lol
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:14 pm


maybe the Gallireyan language was where we got our language from.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:23 pm


Samantha_Grey
maybe the Gallireyan language was where we got our language from.

See, that would explain the weird rules and confusing stuff. xd
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:24 am


Maybe that's why at first they always just wrote everything in English. Then, for some reason, they decided to get more confusing about it. razz

Eruravenne

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knightofthe21stcentury

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:59 am


Maybe it's actually written completely different and cos it's galifreyan it messes up the Tardis's translation thing... Tries to put it in English letters?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm


Why would the Tardis get messed up by the native language of the people who created it? Seems like that would be the first bug to get eliminated from the programming.

Eruravenne

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knightofthe21stcentury

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:12 pm


yeah...
Or it's programmed to make Glaifrean look messed up so people traveling in the Tardis won't be able to read it and discover the secret to time travel or any other Galifrean secrets...
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:54 pm


I think in all the instances where the language(s) of Gallifrey or Earth is shown, there's a purpose or lack thereof behind it.
The Doctor probably wrote a lot of stuff in English because he wanted his companions to understand it. Also, I think the TARDIS's translation system automatically changes the apparent language of any text inside it to something that the reader can understand, but this doesn't apply outside of it.
Also, in the trials and random scribbled notes, I'm not sure that the Time Lords felt it necessary to take the time to write in any language but their own.
It's also possible that Gallifrey is simply a multilingual planet due to all that stuff they teach time-tots in the Academy.

Fourscarf

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