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Women and combat arms
  Yes, they should be able to have combat arms positions
  No, they should not be able to have combat arms positions
  undecided
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xion-dono

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:52 pm


I don't know if I've talked about this before in here or not, but it's been bothering me again.

Most of you probably know that girls can't have an MOS that falls under the category of "combat arms". This includes combat medic, combat engineer, infantry, sniper (different from sharpshooter for some reason), anything to do with a tank, and probably even more that I don't know about or forgot.

This really sucks. I'd love to be a sniper, and the Russians showed us that women can do a damned good job at it. I'd love to be a combat medic, that kind of stuff fascinates me, but not to the point that I'd want to be a doctor; but first responder stuff? Yeah I could go for that. Infantry? Man... what I wouldn't give to be infantry.... -daydreams-

This really isn't fair, because let's be honest, the bare minimum PT scores (at least in the Army, I haven't really investigated the other branches) for the men aren't really things that the women can't meet. The runs are difficult, but not impossible. So, why is it that someone who gets an ok score on the ASVAB and barely passes his PT test can be an infantryman when I can't? When I'm someone who is fit and determined? There's tons of bullshit reasons: "America isn't ready for their daughters to come home dead or wounded", "women aren't as strong as men", "society isn't ready", and the list goes on.

As for the daughters thing, hey guess what, you're in the military. Combat arms aren't the only dangerous positions. I already mentioned strength based on PT scores, and as for society... since when do we give a ******** what society says? O_o; Like honestly, civilians don't understand our world.

This stuff actually really bothers me. I want to know what stand most of you take, and if there's anything I can try to do about this. I know it's not the best idea to stick my neck out there and get political but I read an article recently about a woman on Capitol Hill advocating for these rules to remain. The only argument I've conceded to so far is that if it's going to be a hassle and a lot of paperwork and there would be no large benefit, the army would rather not deal with it. But I've also heard rumors of Obama going back on "don't ask don't tell", which would be a bunch of hassle and paperwork with no large benefit, so why not women too? How can we really claim to be free and equal with rules like this?

/rant. sweatdrop

-EDIT- I think I have talked about this before. sorry if I have and you guys are sick of my rants.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:54 pm


Speaking as an (as of now) Infantry soldier who's seen combat, I can tell you in one word why females are not allowed in combat arms fields and why it will likely never change: fraternization. I can appreciate all your arguments (Although I didn't take the time to read them given the late hour, I've heard them all before), but the fact of the matter is that in a combat situation, some men are unable to trust the opposite sex with their life for some strange reason, and others are just unable to resist certain...... urges, shall we say......

If for no other reason than that, women are not allowed in combat arms specialties. I'm not saying it's right, but I don't disagree with the logic either.

LordEmperorAmoeba
Crew


stacy_medina
Captain

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:28 am


I won't lie, I think being a sniper would be awesome.
But that being said, I don't think women should be in the infantry.
I believe they have done many many studies on the psychological effect on both the women and the men. Not just fraternization, but society raises men to think they have to protect women. In a situation with two males, one or the other would understand that sometimes you just can't get to the guy in time, but they have proven that if one is female, the male will do about anything to get to her, even if it endangers others.
Besides the fact that Tony's gear is about 100lbs on a daily basis. It's hard enough for the guys to carry, physically stature would make it extremely hard for a female to carry it.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:47 am


I too, think it would be awesome as hell to be a sniper or a combat medic, but Amoeba and Exotic hit the nail on the head.

I think however, as the idea is brought up more frequently, and as society continues to move away from the idea that "the man must protect the woman" over the years, women will be able to hold those positions one day. It'll just take time as it would be changing an entire concept about the different genders. So basically, don't hold your breath.

Oh and our daughters are already coming back injured and killed, so that line was just straight bs. =p

Kupo Belle

Sparkling Pieslinger


xion-dono

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:49 am


LordEmperorAmoeba
Speaking as an (as of now) Infantry soldier who's seen combat, I can tell you in one word why females are not allowed in combat arms fields and why it will likely never change: fraternization. I can appreciate all your arguments (Although I didn't take the time to read them given the late hour, I've heard them all before), but the fact of the matter is that in a combat situation, some men are unable to trust the opposite sex with their life for some strange reason, and others are just unable to resist certain...... urges, shall we say......

If for no other reason than that, women are not allowed in combat arms specialties. I'm not saying it's right, but I don't disagree with the logic either.
Well then that's simple, male and female regiments are separate until that changes. It's how blacks got integrated in is it not?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:50 am


Exotic_Memories
I won't lie, I think being a sniper would be awesome.
But that being said, I don't think women should be in the infantry.
I believe they have done many many studies on the psychological effect on both the women and the men. Not just fraternization, but society raises men to think they have to protect women. In a situation with two males, one or the other would understand that sometimes you just can't get to the guy in time, but they have proven that if one is female, the male will do about anything to get to her, even if it endangers others.
Besides the fact that Tony's gear is about 100lbs on a daily basis. It's hard enough for the guys to carry, physically stature would make it extremely hard for a female to carry it.
The physical part can be overcome, and if not infantry (which I too understand) why not snipers? Why not combat medic? Why are ALL of these things restricted?

xion-dono


LordEmperorAmoeba
Crew

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:12 pm


xion-dono
LordEmperorAmoeba
Speaking as an (as of now) Infantry soldier who's seen combat, I can tell you in one word why females are not allowed in combat arms fields and why it will likely never change: fraternization. I can appreciate all your arguments (Although I didn't take the time to read them given the late hour, I've heard them all before), but the fact of the matter is that in a combat situation, some men are unable to trust the opposite sex with their life for some strange reason, and others are just unable to resist certain...... urges, shall we say......

If for no other reason than that, women are not allowed in combat arms specialties. I'm not saying it's right, but I don't disagree with the logic either.
Well then that's simple, male and female regiments are separate until that changes. It's how blacks got integrated in is it not?


Your loigic is noted, but now I'm going to use it against you.

During previous, shall we say...... "racially-sensitive"wars, white and black regiments were, indeed, segregated. However, in the heat of battle, these regiments often became mixed as elements became cut off from their units and men died, so whoever was left was folded in to shore up gaps. While a situation like that may very well go to prove your point that women can hold their own in combat arms....... it could just as easily prove mine.

Oh, and Exotic, while you raise a point about gear, there are female MPs who wear the same gear that we do in country and do almost everything we do (plus a little s**t that's exclusive to them), so the point's not entirely valid.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:22 am


xion-dono
Exotic_Memories
I won't lie, I think being a sniper would be awesome.
But that being said, I don't think women should be in the infantry.
I believe they have done many many studies on the psychological effect on both the women and the men. Not just fraternization, but society raises men to think they have to protect women. In a situation with two males, one or the other would understand that sometimes you just can't get to the guy in time, but they have proven that if one is female, the male will do about anything to get to her, even if it endangers others.
Besides the fact that Tony's gear is about 100lbs on a daily basis. It's hard enough for the guys to carry, physically stature would make it extremely hard for a female to carry it.
The physical part can be overcome, and if not infantry (which I too understand) why not snipers? Why not combat medic? Why are ALL of these things restricted?

My friend brought up a good point.
Females can be combat medics, combat medics and hospital medics are the same MOS, health care specialists.
They aren't supposed to go out on the line, but they often do.

I will admit there are some women who can carry full battle rattle, but I still have a hard time seeing a 110lbs woman carrying 100lbs of gear.

stacy_medina
Captain


xion-dono

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:47 am


Exotic_Memories
xion-dono
Exotic_Memories
I won't lie, I think being a sniper would be awesome.
But that being said, I don't think women should be in the infantry.
I believe they have done many many studies on the psychological effect on both the women and the men. Not just fraternization, but society raises men to think they have to protect women. In a situation with two males, one or the other would understand that sometimes you just can't get to the guy in time, but they have proven that if one is female, the male will do about anything to get to her, even if it endangers others.
Besides the fact that Tony's gear is about 100lbs on a daily basis. It's hard enough for the guys to carry, physically stature would make it extremely hard for a female to carry it.
The physical part can be overcome, and if not infantry (which I too understand) why not snipers? Why not combat medic? Why are ALL of these things restricted?

My friend brought up a good point.
Females can be combat medics, combat medics and hospital medics are the same MOS, health care specialists.
They aren't supposed to go out on the line, but they often do.

I will admit there are some women who can carry full battle rattle, but I still have a hard time seeing a 110lbs woman carrying 100lbs of gear.
When I weighed 110 pounds, I could squat 130. It's totally doable.

As for the medic, I could have sworn there was a differentiation between combat and hospital medic. When I was looking into medic that was what came up. If you're right, then cool, but there's still no need to try and restrict women from the frontline if everything is the same. Even if sometimes people break the rules and women get out there, they're not "supposed" to be there and that needs to change.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:50 am


LordEmperorAmoeba
xion-dono
LordEmperorAmoeba
Speaking as an (as of now) Infantry soldier who's seen combat, I can tell you in one word why females are not allowed in combat arms fields and why it will likely never change: fraternization. I can appreciate all your arguments (Although I didn't take the time to read them given the late hour, I've heard them all before), but the fact of the matter is that in a combat situation, some men are unable to trust the opposite sex with their life for some strange reason, and others are just unable to resist certain...... urges, shall we say......

If for no other reason than that, women are not allowed in combat arms specialties. I'm not saying it's right, but I don't disagree with the logic either.
Well then that's simple, male and female regiments are separate until that changes. It's how blacks got integrated in is it not?


Your loigic is noted, but now I'm going to use it against you.

During previous, shall we say...... "racially-sensitive"wars, white and black regiments were, indeed, segregated. However, in the heat of battle, these regiments often became mixed as elements became cut off from their units and men died, so whoever was left was folded in to shore up gaps. While a situation like that may very well go to prove your point that women can hold their own in combat arms....... it could just as easily prove mine.

Oh, and Exotic, while you raise a point about gear, there are female MPs who wear the same gear that we do in country and do almost everything we do (plus a little s**t that's exclusive to them), so the point's not entirely valid.
In the heat of battle you really think a guy is going to be thinking with his d**k if a female unit comes upon them? But going back to Obama's views on DADT, if that gets overturned your situation is still going to occur with things the way are now. Theoretically they're both possible, but we'll never know until it happens.

This was something I meant to say before too, on the parts about women being more, sensitive shall we say, and men having it ingrained in them that they need to protect women, if basic training can take someone who is indifferent about war and turn them into a killer... why can't we find a way to make women less sensitive and men not feel like they need to protect women? The human brain is like a computer chip, you can rewrite it and rewire it if you need to.

xion-dono


Kupo Belle

Sparkling Pieslinger

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:10 am


Exotic_Memories
xion-dono
Exotic_Memories
I won't lie, I think being a sniper would be awesome.
But that being said, I don't think women should be in the infantry.
I believe they have done many many studies on the psychological effect on both the women and the men. Not just fraternization, but society raises men to think they have to protect women. In a situation with two males, one or the other would understand that sometimes you just can't get to the guy in time, but they have proven that if one is female, the male will do about anything to get to her, even if it endangers others.
Besides the fact that Tony's gear is about 100lbs on a daily basis. It's hard enough for the guys to carry, physically stature would make it extremely hard for a female to carry it.
The physical part can be overcome, and if not infantry (which I too understand) why not snipers? Why not combat medic? Why are ALL of these things restricted?

My friend brought up a good point.
Females can be combat medics, combat medics and hospital medics are the same MOS, health care specialists.
They aren't supposed to go out on the line, but they often do.

I will admit there are some women who can carry full battle rattle, but I still have a hard time seeing a 110lbs woman carrying 100lbs of gear.


Well your weight requirement is based on your height. I could weigh up to 185 pounds before the AF considered me fat, and even more in the Army. I weigh a good 150 right now, lol. It wouldn't be fun carrying 100lbs of gear, but many women could do it, and the women looking into that career would trained and tested before getting in just like any other career.

ALSO... the women getting raped is bullshit as well. Anyone anywhere can get raped. They let women deploy. Women get raped out there. But not too terribly often. You know why? Because 90% of them are whores or want sex just as badly as the guys. Many of them are ugly, so when they get out in that environment and suddenly have guys flirting with them and giving them all this attention, they go buck wild. People will find ways to have sex no matter what. People out there do it in bunkers and portajohns and sneak into eachother's rooms despite general order number one. And a guy can't use the fact that he "had an urge" as an excuse for raping a woman in his unit. Guys' urges are no stronger than women's. "If you're so horny, go masturbate until you're raw," is what they'll tell them.

Maybe I'm just a stickler for the way things are, but I think I do agree with having jobs women can't do. I just don't know if I agree with which jobs those happen to be.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:33 pm


xion-dono
Exotic_Memories
I won't lie, I think being a sniper would be awesome.
But that being said, I don't think women should be in the infantry.
I believe they have done many many studies on the psychological effect on both the women and the men. Not just fraternization, but society raises men to think they have to protect women. In a situation with two males, one or the other would understand that sometimes you just can't get to the guy in time, but they have proven that if one is female, the male will do about anything to get to her, even if it endangers others.
Besides the fact that Tony's gear is about 100lbs on a daily basis. It's hard enough for the guys to carry, physically stature would make it extremely hard for a female to carry it.
The physical part can be overcome, and if not infantry (which I too understand) why not snipers? Why not combat medic? Why are ALL of these things restricted?


I would have to agree about all those and other jobs being restricted is a bit unfair... one job that i thought i would enjoy doing was para-rescue, because it would be challenging as well as rewarding, but i was told that women couldn't do it. i have to admit that i was a bit disapointed, and i really don't see why certian females can't go into that jobfield. i mean, i know that it is a physical strength and endurance thing, but i know some girls that could snap me like a twig, and i'm not a small person. i just think that they should at least let women try, i really think that they should let us show them that we are NOT the 1950's version woman, we're not staying at home pregnant and barefoot anymore. And about the sniper thing, i had several girls in basic with me that got 100 on the shooting range, better than most of the guys in my brother flight. so i say, why not.

the mistress of mayhem

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Danielbeastt

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:40 pm


I'm not saying you specifically but a good majority of women just aren't as strong as men, and in a combat situation that can be very dangerous if they can't keep up.

for example:

I'm in the marines and I went to west coast which is all men and on our humps we did pretty long distances over rough terrain at a pretty good pace, however my buddies from the east coast say that there humps were very slow and the terrain is mild at best, mostly flat, and thats because the females and the males do there humps together, and the girls just aren't able to keep the pace.

Which is understandable because the packs are probably over half of alot of there weights.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:41 am


Which, I understand, but for the jobs that require a certain amount of strength and endurance, the women would be properly tested and trained, they would be held to the same standards as the men... so on and so forth.

I am actually against women getting special treatment in that way and in those situations like you described. I think it's funny because a lot of the activists claimed they wanted "equality." But they sure as hell did NOT want that, they wanted special treatment, and that's what they got.

It's annoying.

I sure as hell couldn't make it through one of those humps, or if I did, not very easily (I can push myself a good deal when my ego's on the line) but I also don't want to be in an combat arms mos, so... we're all good there. Lol.

Kupo Belle

Sparkling Pieslinger


stacy_medina
Captain

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:12 pm


I sure as hell couldn't. But then again, the Army wouldn't/won't touch me 9cept as a dependent)
They don't like food allergies.
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