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The Fabulous Prince Babel

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:00 pm


Before I decided to jump onto the Jew boat I was a big fan of mysticism.
I read a lot about meditation, chakras, and other forms of spiritual mysticism.
I also read about the occult, magic, and other religions outside of the Abrahamic religions with all those crazy gods and the sort and I bought into it.
I learned the basic concepts but I never did any of it.
If someone cracked a joke about Aleister Crowley or some crazy Hermetic Order I'd get the joke real quick.

Now that I've aligned myself with Judaism and the Jewish people I avoid what I used to be so interested in.
Don't mingle with soothsayers and magicians and all that jazz.
Don't walk into a house of idolatry.

I find this a bit hard because, though I worship Hashem alone and follow His laws I can't get rid of that nagging Old Me saying, "Hey, after you're done praying how about some good 'ol meditation?"

When I meditated back in the day I didn't call on any 'gods' or start foaming at the mouth and speaking in tongues... I just kind of channeled my energy through my body which helped calm me down and helped me think better.
I didn't ask G-d to help me out there or didn't use any D&D magick I just used me... if you get what I'm saying.

I guess you could compare it to Buddhism or Hinduism.
I didn't incorporate the whole shabang into my beliefs, just the self-help meditation.
I'm not into a bunch of cosmic blue skinned guys with three eyes or getting rid of all belongings because it'll help me reach 'enlightenment'.

See, I'm Japanese and I feel a powerful pull towards Buddhism along with the Irish folkore and all that 'nature magic'.
Several years ago I had several experiences that made me feel that there was more out there than just... I don't really know how to explain it.
I just don't believe it's just us on earth with the animals.
I believe there's something more...
From what I understand Judaism believes in spirits and all that jazz, we just can't go mucking around in their business.
I'm fine with that...

But when I go looking for some Eastern religion or I'm reading about the supernatural I feel really guilty because I feel like, "I can't do this anymore because I'm not sure Judaism will let me."

Can someone give me some advice or tell it to me straight?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:49 am


http://www.amazon.com/Jew-Lotus-Re-Discovery-Identity-Buddhist/dp/0060645741

http://www.amazon.com/Thats-Funny-Dont-Look-Buddhist/dp/0060609583/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:10 am


Have you taken your time to read through the daily prayers? Look at them sometime, in whatever language is most comfortable for you, especially the P'sukei D'zimra and the Tehillim. Those are a wonderful basis for meditation. Actually, I find pretty much all the prayers to be that way. If I'm low on time, I can of course run through just saying the words pretty quickly to fulfill my obligation, but when I do have lots of time, I find it both fascinating and very moving to read through them and visualize what they say as a story or movie unfolding around me.

That's actually what one is supposed to do, in fact. Meditation has always been a part of Jewish prayer. Visualization, feeling as if every prayer applies to oneself, as if one were present at each historical moment for which a prayer was first composed, internalizing the prayers. I know some very spiritual people who can meditate for half an hour just on one word of prayer, one phrase from Torah or the prayer book.

Spirituality fills Judaism. You wouldn't have to go anywhere else for spirituality, mysticism, holy sexuality, logic, history, humor, science, or anything else you craved. It's all there, if you seek it out.

I urge you to get a copy of a siddur (prayer book) with interlinear or facing translations. I like "The Orot: Sephardic Weekday Siddur" and "The Orot: Sephardic Shabbat Siddur," and as you're Japanese, that might be most appropriate for you as well. The Artscroll series of siddurim are also very good, in the Ashkenazi tradition, as are the Birenbaum line of siddurim, and also Siddur Sim Shalom (Conservative, not Orthodox).
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:15 pm


I have Japanese blood but I'm not fluent in the language.
I also feel mildly guilty because of some of the jewelry I wear.
Most of my rings are dragons and one is a wizard.
One of my necklaces is also a triskelion--which is an old Celtic symbol.
Not exactly Abrahamic in symbolism.

I like collecting weird nick-nacks.
Is collecting those Buddha statues or dragon shrine decorations considered idolatry?
I don't think it would because you're not worshiping the Buddha or the dragon but I'm not sure.

I've read about BuJu's and I was really attracted to it until I read that most of the BuJu's were only Jewish by birth and weren't Jewish by faith.

The Fabulous Prince Babel


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:57 am


The Fabulous Prince Babel
I have Japanese blood but I'm not fluent in the language.


It's not the language that will seem familiar or feel most appropriate. Sephardim are "traditionally" Jews that come from the Iberian peninsula only -- Spain, Portugal, some parts of France, and a handful of South American and Mesoamerican congregations which were started by immigrants from the Sephardi countries.

But in common parlance, the word has come to mean basically any Jew that isn't Ashkenazi, including Mizrachim, the Jews of Africa and Asia.

I should have spoken more precisely and suggested you head for a Mizrachi rabbi, congregation, and/or prayer book, but not knowing the Jewish makeup of your local area, I couldn't be sure there was such a place. In the US and Canada, the overwhelming majority of Jews are Ashkenazi. It's something of a miracle to find even one non-Ashkenazi congregation, and when you do, it's usually a (traditional usage here) Sephardi one, rather than Mizrachi.

Anyway, long story short, as a convert you can choose your community and your "flavor," but I do suspect you'd be most comfortable in a place where your looks would simply be de rigeur.

The Fabulous Prince Babel
I also feel mildly guilty because of some of the jewelry I wear.
Most of my rings are dragons and one is a wizard.
One of my necklaces is also a triskelion--which is an old Celtic symbol.
Not exactly Abrahamic in symbolism.

I like collecting weird nick-nacks.
Is collecting those Buddha statues or dragon shrine decorations considered idolatry?
I don't think it would because you're not worshiping the Buddha or the dragon but I'm not sure.


I'm sorry to say that it's all considered avodah zarah ('foreign worship'), since so many of those symbols are in fact used for worship by some communities. A Jew or potential convert is to stay away from not only worshipping other than in a Jewish way, but also from looking like one is worshipping in a Jewish way. One must not only do right, but be seen to do right.

If you do choose to pursue conversion, the rabbi will almost certainly suggest that the items "present difficulties" or "are not appropriate" or "might cause comment." What he's doing is hinting, without wanting to actually order you to stop. He's going to offer you a little knowledge, and then see if you follow up on it. I would suggest either giving the items to someone who will use them without having religious obstacles to that use, or selling them on eBay or a secondhand store.

However, I also suggest wearing one of those rings to your first meeting, and when/if the rabbi mentions it, stop wearing it and then sell the items. You'll be giving him the opportunity to see it, comment, and then see how quickly you follow his mild suggestion. It will speak well for your seriousness.

The Fabulous Prince Babel
I've read about BuJu's and I was really attracted to it until I read that most of the BuJu's were only Jewish by birth and weren't Jewish by faith.


Sadly, it's true. I've met many Buddhists who were born Jewish, and other Jews who practice other religions, looking for something they didn't find in Judaism. However, not one of them gave Judaism a fair chance. They learned up until the age of bar or bat mitzvah, then stopped, thinking Judaism didn't have what they were looking for.

I find that sad because... well, if they gave up dance at the age of twelve or thirteen because dance didn't have enough movement or creativity for them, they'd be laughed at: you learn what others teach as a child, but only when you grow older do you really get the opportunity to perform your own style, put your individual stamp on choreography. If you gave up math at the age of twelve or thirteen because it was so simple and elementary, you'd never go much past algebra, never get to trigonometry or calculus or discrete mathematics (no, that's not a typo) or symbolic logic or astrophysics. If you gave up studying biology because "Hey, I was born with a body, I know how it works, what else do I need?" you'd never know the amazing amount that there was to learn, never make it to medical school.

Yet when we take a four thousand year old tradition and teach it to a child, and the child gives up after getting only the stuff that children get, without even giving themselves the opportunity to learn in a more adult way, and then assumes that "Judaism doesn't offer what I'm looking for," people don't even seem to flinch. "Well, he gave it a try, so I'm satisfied."

That's like saying you've had lutefisk (fish prepared by burying it in the ground to rot for a year or so), so you don't need to try sushi or baked salmon because all fish tastes icky. It's ridiculous, but it's also sad, because not only has that individual lost their connection to something they were looking for everywhere but where they could actually find it, but also any future generations they have will be lost to Judaism as well.

One of my favorite songs in high school choir was based on a poem that I think sums this up nicely. If I recall correctly, it went something like this:

Seek not far for beauty. Lo! It glows
in dew-wet grasses all about thy feet;
In birds, in sunshine, childish faces sweet;
In stars, and mountain summits topped with snows.

Go not abroad for happiness. For, see,
It is a flower that blossoms at thy door!
Bring love and justice home, and then no more
Thou'lt wonder in what dwelling joy may be.

Dream not of noble service elsewhere wrought;
The simple duty that awaits thy hand
Is God's voice uttering a divine command;
Life's common duties build all that saint have thought.

In wonder-workings or some bush aflame,
Men look for God, and fancy Him concealed;
But in earth's common things he stands revealed,
While grass and stars and flowers spell out his name.


-- Minot J. Savage

What you want is already there in your hand.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:29 pm


Divash

The Fabulous Prince Babel
I also feel mildly guilty because of some of the jewelry I wear.
Most of my rings are dragons and one is a wizard.
One of my necklaces is also a triskelion--which is an old Celtic symbol.
Not exactly Abrahamic in symbolism.

I like collecting weird nick-nacks.
Is collecting those Buddha statues or dragon shrine decorations considered idolatry?
I don't think it would because you're not worshiping the Buddha or the dragon but I'm not sure.


I'm sorry to say that it's all considered avodah zarah ('foreign worship'), since so many of those symbols are in fact used for worship by some communities. A Jew or potential convert is to stay away from not only worshipping other than in a Jewish way, but also from looking like one is worshipping in a Jewish way. One must not only do right, but be seen to do right.

If you do choose to pursue conversion, the rabbi will almost certainly suggest that the items "present difficulties" or "are not appropriate" or "might cause comment." What he's doing is hinting, without wanting to actually order you to stop. He's going to offer you a little knowledge, and then see if you follow up on it. I would suggest either giving the items to someone who will use them without having religious obstacles to that use, or selling them on eBay or a secondhand store.

However, I also suggest wearing one of those rings to your first meeting, and when/if the rabbi mentions it, stop wearing it and then sell the items. You'll be giving him the opportunity to see it, comment, and then see how quickly you follow his mild suggestion. It will speak well for your seriousness.

Okay, looking back I can understand the statue items in question.
I thought those might be some interesting decorations for my room but I don't actually own the items in question.

The rings, however, are a problem.
I haven't had a problem with Judaism up until you said that... because, you see the rings are me.
I wear them to show who I am and my interests.
I'm not using the rings for magic or something stupid like that.
They represent who I am and where I come from.
My ancestors are from the Celtic regions of Ireland and Great Britain along with the aristocracy of Japan.
I use the dragon rings to show people that I come from those regions of the world and I am proud.
I'm not wearing them because of whatever wacko Wiccan or someone in Asia worshiping the "Dragon Kings" thinks, I'm wearing them because of what I think and the cultural significance it brings to me.

I can ditch the wizard ring and the necklace with the triskelion, but I don't think I will remove the dragon rings for the reasons I have stated.
I looked up avodah zarah and it was written back in the days of early Christianity and Hellenic Rome where Idolatry was a lot different than the religions we got around today.
I don't think those rules exactly apply to the way I'm living right now because there aren't too many folks pulling around a Moloch idol these days.

And, with all due respect, I don't think Hashem will smite me down for wearing some culturally significant rings and I'm willing to argue with anyone who tells me I'm doing a terrible wrong for being me.

All the other religious laws I'm a-okay with but this one's totally beyond me.

The Fabulous Prince Babel


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:15 am


The Fabulous Prince Babel

The rings, however, are a problem.
I haven't had a problem with Judaism up until you said that... because, you see the rings are me.
I wear them to show who I am and my interests.
I'm not using the rings for magic or something stupid like that.
They represent who I am and where I come from.
My ancestors are from the Celtic regions of Ireland and Great Britain along with the aristocracy of Japan.
I use the dragon rings to show people that I come from those regions of the world and I am proud.
I'm not wearing them because of whatever wacko Wiccan or someone in Asia worshiping the "Dragon Kings" thinks, I'm wearing them because of what I think and the cultural significance it brings to me.

I can ditch the wizard ring and the necklace with the triskelion, but I don't think I will remove the dragon rings for the reasons I have stated.
I looked up avodah zarah and it was written back in the days of early Christianity and Hellenic Rome where Idolatry was a lot different than the religions we got around today.
I don't think those rules exactly apply to the way I'm living right now because there aren't too many folks pulling around a Moloch idol these days.

And, with all due respect, I don't think Hashem will smite me down for wearing some culturally significant rings and I'm willing to argue with anyone who tells me I'm doing a terrible wrong for being me.

All the other religious laws I'm a-okay with but this one's totally beyond me.


You said you're of Japanese blood. Do you think that you need a ring to tell that to people? Look at your own face in the mirror. The way to wear your heritage proudly is the same way anyone else wears theirs: by standing tall, by behaving with dignity, by showing respect for yourself and others. Anyone who looks at you will know that that behavior is because of all that you are, which is what you came from plus what you added for yourself.

You'd need to consult a Torah-observant rabbi for further details, but I suspect he'll say something similar: don't negate who you are, focus on who you are. Hashem already made the most beautiful adornment for your soul, the body in which it resides.

If you truly can't get past that, then maybe Judaism isn't for you. A sincere convert is one who accepts all of the 613 mitzvot. Denying even one of them is not permitted to a convert. But -- and I'll say it again -- there is absolutely nothing wrong with not being a Jew. Hashem made Jews, and Hashem made non-Jews, because both are equal in the world and serve holy purposes within the world that is, and also in the world to come. As you say, you are not doing anything wrong by being yourself. Your Self, however, may not be a Jewish self. If that's the case, then honor who you really are, instead of trying to be something else.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:15 pm


I reread the 613 mitzvot, especially the one concerning idols, and from my interpretation they said there wasn't a problem with me wearing something like dragon rings.
It'd be a major problem is I was wearing Baal or Pan on my fingers or some other 'god'.
I also talked to a couple of my friends who are Buddhist-savvy and they said in Asian culture dragons aren't worshiped in religion, they're more of 'revered' as symbols of their national identity and past.
They weren't apart of their religion as deities or anything.

I also emailed a rabbi.
I got his email today and he said that though some dragons are a part of religions in some areas around the world there is no problem with me wearing the rings or me having a fascination with them because I do not view them as idols or gods or what have you.
He also mentioned that there are dragons in Jewish folklore and mythology like the Leviathan.
Then he said that when I sit down to convert I can reevaluate the issue but he says that it isn't a big issue.

The Fabulous Prince Babel


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:30 am


Did he bring up the issue of carved/graven images?

What was his affiliation -- Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Sephardi?

I know what my rabbi would say about it, and I've told you, but of course you have to choose your own rav. Choose carefully, because unless something major happens to change your entire mindset and views, or to put a serious wedge between you, your rav is your rav for pretty much the rest of your life.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:31 pm


Yeah, he said since I don't view them as idols and seeing as how the rings aren't 'gods' then I wasn't breaking any rules.
He didn't mention what he was.

The Fabulous Prince Babel


divineseraph

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:36 am


When you meditated, you came in contact with your soul. With your Atman. Any Hindu will tell you that the goal is to realize that the Atman and Brahman are the same. All religions really say the same thing, they point to the same basic idea- A concious singularity of creation. This relates to Kabbalistic Monism- All is one, all things come from God, and are therefore made of a primal stuff.

If you contact your essential self, your Soul, or Atman, as it is called in Hindu, then you come closer to the Brahman, or ultimate reality. It doesn't matter what name you call God, in what language. THe point is that you're conciously aware of yourself as eternal, and of God as eternal.

If you use magic, you are using the forces of Nature which sprang directly from God. If you see a part of God in an animal, you are seeing it because, again, all things are essentially one. Point being, it doesn't matter how you call God, or where you see God. If you think God has four hundred million faces and shows up as four hundred million different entities, you're right. If you think God is one infinite singularity, you are right.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:37 pm


Eh, I don't deal with magic or the occult because I found it really, really unfulfilling spiritually.
It was like a weight, I guess you could say.
There wasn't anyone to really look up to.

Hindu worship of multiple gods--which are actually all carnations of one single entity which is basically Hashem--weirds me out because I prefer to have one G-d who can do everything instead of multiple gods which have special little jobs to help people out.
I just don't see the point except for the fact they make for great stories.

I do, however, like Hindu and Buddhist meditation with chakras and all that jazz.
I doubt it's compatible with Judaism though...

The Fabulous Prince Babel


divineseraph

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:13 pm


The Fabulous Prince Babel
Eh, I don't deal with magic or the occult because I found it really, really unfulfilling spiritually.
It was like a weight, I guess you could say.
There wasn't anyone to really look up to.

Hindu worship of multiple gods--which are actually all carnations of one single entity which is basically Hashem--weirds me out because I prefer to have one G-d who can do everything instead of multiple gods which have special little jobs to help people out.
I just don't see the point except for the fact they make for great stories.

I do, however, like Hindu and Buddhist meditation with chakras and all that jazz.
I doubt it's compatible with Judaism though...


It was like the Jainist view of Karma, then?

But that's exactly it- The multiple Gods are all faces of the One. It doesn't matter if you distill out his ten emanations or look to every single atom, or only consider one singularity, you're still acknowledging the Divine. God is the beginning, and all we see on earth is the corrupt part far away from the source- It's Malkhut and Samsara. I'm not sure if Malkhut is intended to be a swear, but I say it like one- It's the corrupt realm of filth and mortality. Point being, even though it doesn't look like God, all physical things came from God, so calling them aspects of God is at least part right.


Your soul is made up of the same stuff as God- the eternal soulstuff. If you are doing something to confirm your soul, you are coming closer to God- If you meditate and find your essential self, you're getting closer to God in that way.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:23 pm


Okay, the jewelry and the Buddha statues are artistic representations of a cultural heritage and not a religion. Where one Rabbi might make the distinction, another won't. Furthermore, Moses fought out the whole graven images commandment with HaShem, as one might read in the Talmud.

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hateyou the warlock

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:47 am


As a side note, I have heard that plates or other utensils with a non-kosher animal depicted of them should not be used.

I would think that the Dragon would be an interesting discussion, I myself am half Chinese, have converted to Orthodox Judiasim , along with my parents and brother, (We are now Chabad Lubavitch but also study many other teachings, like Rebbe Nachman of the Breslov) and have one necklace with a Lung Dragon on it. It is currently lost among my stuff. I have heard nothing about worshiping the Lung Dragon but have heard that it is meant to represent long life or wisdom(Age and wisdom are closely tied in Chinese culture which is one of the reasons that elders are highly respected.) Since it is not worshiped I do not believe it would be considered an Idol but since it is used to represent an attribute it would definitely bring up discussion. I myself am rather undecided.
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