|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:28 pm
Okay, basically over the past few days I have been adding passages to a list that I don't understand, or find questionable, and all that jazz so if anyone would be so kind to help me in understanding these things I'd be really appreciative. (Also, some of these are from various Christian translations of the Bible so feel free to point out any bad translations). From Leviticus 20:9- Quote: For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother his blood is upon him. Can anyone seriously explain why parents are commanded to kill their children? I'm really confused here. Also In Hosea 9:11-16 Quote: 11 As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird— No birth, no pregnancy, and no conception! 12 Though they bring up their children, Yet I will bereave them to the last man. Yes, woe to them when I depart from them! 13 Just as I saw Ephraim like Tyre, planted in a pleasant place, So Ephraim will bring out his children to the murderer.” 14 Give them, O LORD— What will You give? Give them a miscarrying womb And dry breasts! 15 “ All their wickedness is in Gilgal, For there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more. All their princes are rebellious. 16 Ephraim is stricken, Their root is dried up; They shall bear no fruit. Yes, were they to bear children, I would kill the darlings of their womb.” and in Isaiah 13:15-18 Quote: 15 Everyone who is found will be thrust through, And everyone who is captured will fall by the sword. 16 Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished. 17 “ Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it. 18 Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces, And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb; Their eye will not spare children. It gives the impression that G-d's kills children. Not to mention G-d killing every first-born Egyptian child, how were they guilty? Furthermore, in Isaiah 45:7 Quote: I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. Why would a good G-d create evil? I was under the impression that G-d didn't so much create evil, rather he gave men free will to choose evil. Okay, now from Samuel 15:2-3 Quote: 2 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts, I have marked that which Amalek did to Israel, how he set himself against him in the way, when he came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a**. Why does G-d command the death of women and children? This kind of thing happens again in Numbers 31:17 Quote: Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. However, this time, Moshe is commanded to keep the little girls as slaves Quote: but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:18 ) WHY? (So many questions) In Jeremiah 19:9 and Ezekiel 5:10 G-d commands cannibalism Quote: I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives. (Jeremiah 5:10) Quote: Therefore in your midst fathers will eat their children, and children will eat their fathers. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds.(Ezekiel 5:10) What's going on here? And also, why does G-d create disabled people (as in Exodus 4:11)- Quote: The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD ? This is just sickening and unnecessary, and I guess I'm just a little crazy for believing G-d is a sadistic madman sometimes but... G-d damn. I have quite a few more parts of scripture that I need guidance with but for now this is enough, I so hope someone can come mosey on over and give me help with these!
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:51 am
About these passages there is much discussion within the scholarly community, let alone among those of us who are clearly not scholars. Your best resource will be an Introduction to Judaism class taught by an Orthodox (or Sephardi/Mizrachi -- the communities that never divided into Reform/Conservative/Orthodox factions) rabbi. Take these very good questions to a qualified rabbi and ask for clarification.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Eloquent Conversationalist
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:58 pm
itsthatKat Furthermore, in Isaiah 45:7 Quote: I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. Why would a good G-d create evil? I was under the impression that G-d didn't so much create evil, rather he gave men free will to choose evil. This I can help with. G-d creates light and darkness, good and evil for one big reason: Without darkness, there is no light. Without evil, there is no good. It's basically saying that if there was only one painting in the world, it would have to be beautiful and ugly, because there were no ugly or beautiful paintings to compare it with. One cannot exist without the other. There is no up without down. No in without out. G-d created evil, so that we could be good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:18 pm
Quote: This I can help with. G-d creates light and darkness, good and evil for one big reason: Without darkness, there is no light. Without evil, there is no good. It's basically saying that if there was only one painting in the world, it would have to be beautiful and ugly, because there were no ugly or beautiful paintings to compare it with. One cannot exist without the other. There is no up without down. No in without out. G-d created evil, so that we could be good. Oh okay, for sure, It's very taoist, but an answer which I'm quite happy with. Regarding my other questions, when you read such parts of scripture were you as disturbed/shocked/pushed back as me? I mean, what kind of G-d would command his prophet to slaughter an entire city but leave only the little girls to take as slaves? Did you ever question the legitimacy of your faith since it is entirely based on this book?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:26 pm
You can't pin down Judaism, as you can't pin down Hashem. The Torah is a holy book, sure, but you have to realise that some parts of it have been... added to. I doubt G-d ordered us not to eat shellfish. It's in there because someone realised that shellfish goes off quickly in hot places (like Israel) and so wrote it down to save people from food poisoning.
So when you see that our G-d has ordered us to eat each other, even though he forbade it, I think very much there was mischief with the scribe going on.
Or you can look at the fact that I have yet to find a verse that states Hashem is benevolent. He is capable of causing suffering and pain, if He so wishes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:44 pm
Quote: You can't pin down Judaism, as you can't pin down Hashem. The Torah is a holy book, sure, but you have to realise that some parts of it have been... added to. I doubt G-d ordered us not to eat shellfish. It's in there because someone realised that shellfish goes off quickly in hot places (like Israel) and so wrote it down to save people from food poisoning. So when you see that our G-d has ordered us to eat each other, even though he forbade it, I think very much there was mischief with the scribe going on. Added to? Hmm, it's just I was under the impression that the Torah was given to Moshe on Mt Sinai and has not changed since then. Quote: Or you can look at the fact that I have yet to find a verse that states Hashem is benevolent. He is capable of causing suffering and pain, if He so wishes. Why would you worship Him then if all He seems to do is inflict pain?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Eloquent Conversationalist
|
Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:23 am
Note, Kat, that not all of us feel that Torah has been added to or subtracted from (in fact, one of the mitzvot is to not add to or subtract from the Torah).
Behatzlachah, here's one verse, of many, that describes Hashem's benevolence:
1 And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
3 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
5 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.
-- Exodus 20:1-5
Immediately thereafter are the Aseret ha-Dibrot (Ten Utterances, often called Ten Commandments by non-Jews).
Verse 4 says that the iniquities (wrongdoings, sins, ethical errors) of the fathers will be visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation, yes. Let's take some of the iniquities and see how they might affect the lives of children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren.
Let's say that I, G*D forbid, commit adultery. My children will be known as the sons and daughters of a sotah (adulteress), and also very likely as mamzeirim (who are only permitted to marry converts or other mamzeirim, rather than anyone in Yisrael). The status of a mamzeir continues on through the generations -- anyone know if it lasts four generations, or forever? -- and is serious business. The sins of the parent, me, will affect the lives of my children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren.
If I, G*D forbid, am a thief, my children and grandchildren may be suspected of having learned at my knee too. They won't be trusted. They may even be called upon to repay the money or belongings that I've stolen, to make restitution to my victims.
If I, G*D forbid, give false witness in court, my children would certainly suffer when I am imprisoned and unable to be a parent for them.
If I, G*D forbid, do not keep Shabbat, my children will not learn Shabbat. They will not feel the special connection that they have to Shabbat as Jews. They will not meet other people who keep Shabbat, they will not marry people who keep Shabbat, they will not have children who know how to keep Shabbat, and in a very few generations, their descendants will not even know they are Jews. They may not even be Jews, thanks to the likelihood of intermarriage.
It goes on and on.
And yet, verse 5 tells us that Hashem shows "mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments." That means that if a person repents sincerely and turns back to Hashem and Hashem's ways, Hashem will show generous compassion to them and to all their descendants.
Hm... problems for four generations versus compassion for a thousand. Seems like Hashem comes out looking pretty good, even by poor mortal standards, eh?
Now, go look up the OTHER manifold verses that show Hashem's compassion!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:44 pm
Rule 1 of JGG:
(a) All topics digress
(b) All topics will eventually reach food.
Rule 2 of the JGG:
Divash knows more than you, no matter what.
I've always picture Hashem as a G-d who does not give a second chance. And I am short in years. I haven't read the Torah - or studied it - as much as others. Though that's no real excuse. Sorry about that last post's last paragraph, then!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:42 pm
I thought rule 1 of JGG was don't talk about JGG. Oh, well..
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:16 am
Behatzlacha-S Rule 2 of the JGG: Divash knows more than you, no matter what. No, no, I just look up the answers I don't know, before posting. Or I ask my rav, who knows more than all of us put together, and then some.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Eloquent Conversationalist
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:22 pm
That it totally the rule, though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:14 am
Well, okay, if you say so. I'll pretend to be all cool and smart if you like. cool
|
|
|
|
|
|
Eloquent Conversationalist
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:24 pm
Behatzlacha-S I've always picture Hashem as a G-d who does not give a second chance. And I am short in years. I haven't read the Torah - or studied it - as much as others. Though that's no real excuse. Sorry about that last post's last paragraph, then! Wicked late, but meh. I started studying the Qur'an before I started with Torah, and I always have the "most merciful Allah" thing in my head whenever I read about G-d.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:03 pm
I don't agree with the archaic Christian view of G-d as some big bearded man. In fact, I don't agree with people giving Hashem form. It does say we were formed in his likeness, but to picture Hashem is to think you can know G-d, which you never can entirely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:53 pm
Behatzlacha-S I don't agree with the archaic Christian view of G-d as some big bearded man. In fact, I don't agree with people giving Hashem form. It does say we were formed in his likeness, but to picture Hashem is to think you can know G-d, which you never can entirely. I swear I've read somewhere that you're not supposed to picture G-d at all, because He's infinite and by picturing Him you're limiting Him to a finite form.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
