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itsthatKat

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:39 pm


I know I'm not under G-d's mitzvot currently, but I want to observe them to the best of my abilities before I convert anyway. But my question is, how do Orthodox Jews get their peyot in that wonderful curly style? (since I don't want my hair to be just shaggy and everywhere). But yeah, Vayikra 19:27 is something I can easily observe in my current situation (albeit with odd looks, G-d bless my WASPy town).
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:54 am


The first thing to do is speak to an Orthodox rabbi.

The second thing is to learn which mitzvot you're permitted to keep as a non-Jew, which you're permitted/encouraged to keep as someone who is officially in the process of conversion, and which are reserved only for Jews. The rabbi will be able to help with that.

Peyot, tallit, and tefillin should be put off until your rabbi specifically says that it's a good time to start with those mitzvot. If your hair is already long, that will help; all you'll have to do is cut your hair and leave your peyot. So maybe try growing all your hair out a couple inches longer than you might normally keep it, and tell your rabbi why. Either that, or -- as a friend of mine did -- keep your hair short, but let it grow for a month leading up to your mikvah immersion, and then cut all but the peyot the day after your immersion.

How to curl the peyot: Different men do it in different ways. Traditionally, it happens because you absently twirl your peyot around your fingers as you study Torah and Talmud all day, beginning in childhood. Since you didn't grow up with that, start twirling it now, just the hair in front of your ears. Often, men will get their peyot damp and then twirl them and leave them every morning, and if your hair is really straight, do it more than once throughout the day to train the hair to go that way.

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itsthatKat

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:41 am


(Divash why are you always so helpful? wink )

Quote:
The first thing to do is speak to an Orthodox rabbi.


If I could do this, I would, oh how I so would. But sadly I live nowhere near a shul.

Quote:
The second thing is to learn which mitzvot you're permitted to keep as a non-Jew, which you're permitted/encouraged to keep as someone who is officially in the process of conversion, and which are reserved only for Jews. The rabbi will be able to help with that.


So G-d will punish me for keeping mitzvot for Jews and not goyim?

Quote:
Peyot, tallit, and tefillin should be put off until your rabbi specifically says that it's a good time to start with those mitzvot.


Again with the lack of Rabbi.

Quote:
If your hair is already long, that will help; all you'll have to do is cut your hair and leave your peyot. So maybe try growing all your hair out a couple inches longer than you might normally keep it, and tell your rabbi why. Either that, or -- as a friend of mine did -- keep your hair short, but let it grow for a month leading up to your mikvah immersion, and then cut all but the peyot the day after your immersion.


My hair is already pretty long, I keep it in a pony tail most of the time.

Quote:
How to curl the peyot: Different men do it in different ways. Traditionally, it happens because you absently twirl your peyot around your fingers as you study Torah and Talmud all day, beginning in childhood. Since you didn't grow up with that, start twirling it now, just the hair in front of your ears. Often, men will get their peyot damp and then twirl them and leave them every morning, and if your hair is really straight, do it more than once throughout the day to train the hair to go that way.


Oooh okay, for sure, that makes sense. Thanks!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:12 am


You may be closer than you think. You are equipped with internet access, after all, which means that the entire world is at your fingertips. Go to http://www.chabad.org and look for a Chabad in your area. If there isn't one, email them and/or post to their Ask A Rabbi forum for advice. They'll probably tell you to move to a place that has a Jewish community.

Hint: That's the "first refusal." A rabbi is obligated by rabbinic law to refuse a convert three times, either by telling them no outright, by having a discouraging manner, or by telling them something that will make it difficult for them in a practical way. Telling you to move is kind of a first test: If you actually do pick up and move to a town with a Jewish community, however small, the rabbi there will say "Wait, you picked up and moved just to be near Jews?" and they will take you more seriously because you've demonstrated a concrete commitment to living a Jewish life.

If you can't move right now, don't sweat it. Maybe you need to finish high school and pick a college in a suitable location with a good Jewish population. Maybe you need to finish college and find a job in such a place. Maybe you need to work a while to save up the money to be able to move. Whatever -- it's a temporary obstacle, if you truly have it within you to take on the 613 commandments.

I'll answer the next spate of questions in my next post.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:26 am


Hashem would not punish you for keeping the commandments that Jews keep rather than only the seven Noachide commandments that are given to non-Jews to keep.

However, they're not commandments for you. They're "pretty good ideas" most of the time, but they're not commandments. Let me explain with an example:

It's housekeeping day. I'm cleaning the bathrooms. I have two kids, and I ask one to clean the kitchen and the other to clean the living room and the guest bedroom. Instead, both wander into the kitchen and start cleaning. At the end of the day, the living room and guest room are still messy. On the other hand, if one kid finishes his own chores and then goes in to help the other, then that kid has done something much better. He's taken care of his own responsibilities, and he has assisted the other in completing his responsibilities as well. He was not commanded to clean the kitchen, yet he took more upon himself, and I'm proud of him.

However, let's say that I specifically say, "David, I want you to clean the kitchen. Jonathan, I want you to clean the living room and the guest room. If one of you finishes early, he can go help the other. However, Jonathan, even if you finish early, I do not want you to clean out the oven. David needs to learn to do that chore for himself." Now, if Jonathan finishes cleaning the living and guest rooms and goes in to help David, and he starts right away in cleaning the oven, he's done something that I specifically asked him not to do -- and he's also taken away David's opportunity to learn a thing that I mean for him to learn.


There are only a tiny handful of things that a Noachide (a child of Noach, that is, everyone) is commanded to do. Just seven things, but they are broad, sweeping commandments. There are a lot of things that a Jew (also descended from Noach, but from a particular sub-branch of the human family) is commanded to do, but a lot of those are nitpicky little details. Each set of commandments has its own merit, its own value in the world. Every nation, every people, every ethnicity, every person, has a purpose. He should fulfill his own purpose before going to assist another with their purpose.

But there are also a tiny handful of things that are only suitable for a Jew to do: Eating the Passover sacrifice at the Temple (or in the absence of the Temple, eating the afikomen at the Passover meal); wearing tallit; wrapping tefillin; growing out the peyot; keeping Shabbat perfectly (a non-Jew must perform one act of m'lachaha during every Shabbat in order to remind himself and others that he is not a Jew); and saying any blessing which includes the words "for us" or "has commanded us." Those are all I can think of; there may be more, but still, only a tiny percentage. If you can live by the Noachide mitzvot, that is not only good in itself, but it is also a very good beginning at Jewish life.

When you write to a Chabad rabbi, or any other rabbi you find online, please ask him for advice on how to observe the Noachide laws until such time as you can become a part of a Jewish community and start to take on a little more. Clean your own room before going to help David in the kitchen. wink
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:14 am


Quote:
You may be closer than you think. You are equipped with internet access, after all, which means that the entire world is at your fingertips. Go to http://www.chabad.org and look for a Chabad in your area. If there isn't one, email them and/or post to their Ask A Rabbi forum for advice. They'll probably tell you to move to a place that has a Jewish community.


Actually, I've looked on every Jewish directory / secular directory I can find and I've finally admitted to myself that Jews settled in areas slightly out of my reach (45 by car minutes being the closest).

Quote:
Hint: That's the "first refusal." A rabbi is obligated by rabbinic law to refuse a convert three times, either by telling them no outright, by having a discouraging manner, or by telling them something that will make it difficult for them in a practical way. Telling you to move is kind of a first test: If you actually do pick up and move to a town with a Jewish community, however small, the rabbi there will say "Wait, you picked up and moved just to be near Jews?" and they will take you more seriously because you've demonstrated a concrete commitment to living a Jewish life.


Yes! And I've decided I as soon as I can find work and earn enough to do so, I will move to, or at least close to this beautiful town just full of Jews called Elsternwick.

Quote:
If you can't move right now, don't sweat it. Maybe you need to finish high school and pick a college in a suitable location with a good Jewish population. Maybe you need to finish college and find a job in such a place. Maybe you need to work a while to save up the money to be able to move. Whatever -- it's a temporary obstacle, if you truly have it within you to take on the 613 commandments.


I (barely) finished High School a year ago, I'm twenty now, unemployed and living with my parents (yeah, I'm a hit at bars...). But yes, as I said, at the moment, it's a matter of Torah study, money savin' and Torah study
wink

Quote:
When you write to a Chabad rabbi, or any other rabbi you find online, please ask him for advice on how to observe the Noachide laws until such time as you can become a part of a Jewish community and start to take on a little more. Clean your own room before going to help David in the kitchen


Haha, of coarse, for sure. And bless you for the advice!

itsthatKat


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:13 am


Glad I could help, even if it feels like all you ever hear are "Don't do it" or "wait for a long time." We've all been there at some point in our lives -- wanting something so badly, then being told we can't have it, or at least that we can't have it any time soon. But "someday" will eventually become "today" if it's important enough to you. You'll make a way!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:26 pm


(I thought rather than starting a whole new thread I might as well ask you right here)

I have my ears pierced and I was just wondering if Torah says anything about piercing of the ears. I remember reading something about mutilation of the body but I hardly would consider such small things mutilation... hmm

itsthatKat


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:21 am


The Torah instructs regarding piercings:

Even among the strictest of Orthodox (Ashkenazi) and observant Sephardi/Mizrachi rabbinic authorities, there are really liberal interpretations that say "ear piercing and nose piercing are fine." Even among the most liberal of Reform (Ashkenazi) or progressive rabbinic authorities, there are those that say "no piercings other than one hole in the ears."

In Leviticus 19:28, we find the following verse: "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." Many people take this to refer to piercings ("cuttings in your flesh") and tattoos ("print any marks upon you"). Orthodox, Reform, and Conservative Jews all follow this very closely, as do Sephardi and Mizrachi Jews at all points on the spectrum of observance. The Torah was very clear on piercings and tattoos in Exodus 21:6, Genesis 35:4, Deuteronomy 14;1-2 and 1 Kings 18:28. All these versus specifically state that the Lord God did not approve of any type of markings for his chosen people.

Ear piercing is mentioned in the Torah in several situations. The most familiar speaks about a Hebrew slave who’s going to be freed in the seventh year of servitude but declares his love for his master and refuses to go free: "...his master shall take him before Hashem. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall then remain his slave for life." (Exodus 21:6). One who feels himself to be an oved Hashem (a servant of G*D) could legitimately pierce his ear as a sign of this servitude. However, in observant communities, it is also considered an unnecessary adornment, and is pretty much "not done" even though it is permissible.

There is some disagreement in the Gemara (Babylonian Talmud) as to how permanent this piercing of the slave's ear was supposed to be. But today, our piercings are clearly of a non-permanent nature and intent is purely decorative. This type of piercing was also known in the Torah: "I inquired of her, 'Whose daughter are you?'...And I put the ring on her nose and the bands on her arm" (Genesis 24:47). This is also well documented in rabbinic times: "...small girls may go out [on Shabbat] with threads or even chips in their ears" (Mishneh Shabbat 6:6).

Even though there is no law against piercings, we are told to consider health risks (infection, unclean conditions), b'tzelem Elokim (human creation in the divine image), and tzniut (modesty -- that is, the one doing the piercing will see the body of the one being pierced). In fact, the issue of tzniut is so important that pretty much the only places that should be pierced are on the parts of the body that anyone is permitted to see -- face, hands, and feet. And hello, who pierces hands and feet? Pretty much only nose, ears, and maybe eyebrows are included in the permitted areas, based on the principles of tzniut.

Short answer: There's conflict about nose, ear, and eyebrow piercings. However, ear and nose piercings are the only piercings mentioned at all in the Torah.

Other responses:

Conservative: http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/040220/torah.shtml
Conservative: http://www.beth-elsa.org/be_s0424.htm

Orthodox: http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/256,2416/Does-the-Torah-prohibit-body-piercing.html
Orthodox: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080707200127AA1JpdB
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:07 pm


AskMoses.com

It is permitted for women to pierce themselves for (commonly accepted) beautification purposes. However, it is forbidden for a woman to pierce in concurrence with a fad or trend because we are commanded not to "follow the traditions [of the gentiles]". 1

It is forbidden for men to pierce themselves since piercing is considered primarily a "woman's adornment."

[Sources: Deuteronomy 22:5 and Leviticus 18:3. See Maimonides, Laws of Idolatry 11:1 and 12:10.]


From my limited studies and readings of these passages I don't really understand how ear piercings are forbidden for men because they are a woman's adornment. From what I understand, men are not forbidden to wear clothes made for women and vice versa, but I don't consider piercings to be clothes.

Yahoo Answers
For men there is an added issue of "lo yilbash" - not doing things that are traditionally done by women - so piercing for men is a definite no-go.


I must admit, I don't really know and haven't read much regarding "lo yibash", I'll have to read more. I do wonder though, what is G-d's reasoning behind lo yibash, why is it prohibited for a man to dress like a woman?

(I do love my earrings though, they're so small and pretty.)

itsthatKat


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:35 pm


The prohibition against a man wearing a woman's clothing or a woman wearing a man's clothing is from Deuteronomy (D'varim) 22:5, to wit:

"A woman must not put on a man's apparel (beged ish), nor shall a man wear woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is abhorrent to the Lord, your God."

This is called "beged ish/beged ishah," that is, a garment of a man/woman.

Some interpret this very strictly to mean that nothing that is suitable for a man to wear is suitable for a woman to wear, and vice versa. They don't even want a man to wear a kilt -- which in fact is a man's garment -- because it resembles a skirt, nor a woman to wear a salwar (Indian, loose pant designed to be worn under a kameez, which is a long shirt-dress) even though it is a woman's garment, simply because it encases the legs like a man's trouser does.

Some interpret it very liberally, meaning that if a person wants to wear something, he should buy his own and not borrow it from someone else (of the opposite gender). So if a man or boy wants to wear a skirt, he should buy one of his own (hopefully one that fits him and flatters him) rather than borrowing his sister's or his wife's clothing.

Earrings are not clothing (beged). They are ornamentation or adornment (yilbash).
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