This is a stupid question but I'm going to ask anyway thread

[Shearaha]

Violet Song jat Shariff

Shearaha

It's a term I heard a while ago and can't remember where. It was used to mean something similar to fate. In that because of what had gone before this is what was most likely to happen next. It could be changed but depending on how much "weight" the past had over it it could take the intervention of the Nords to change it.

Are you thinking of orlog perhaps?

I think that may be it. I'm gonna have to go and find those notes. I hate it when my mother comes to visit unannounced.  

[TeaDidikai]

Shearaha

It's a term I heard a while ago and can't remember where. It was used to mean something similar to fate. In that because of what had gone before this is what was most likely to happen next. It could be changed but depending on how much "weight" the past had over it it could take the intervention of the Nords to change it.

My understanding is that Orlog binds the Norns themselves. Then you have Wyrd, which is a related concept- often when I talk about "Those Double Take Moments", most Norse pagans I know would describe it as awareness of Wyrd.

But I am pretty sure we're talking about Hamingja, since it is a force that runs through a family and a person and is effected by one's actions for good or ill.

Please understand this analogy is based on my understanding but:

Orlog is the riverbed, wyrd is a splash we notice even if we don't know what caused it and Hamingja is the current we feel.

`Blaise

i have a question about the Christian concept of sin.

basically, evil is the hole in the donut of reality; evil does not exist but it is real [it has no esse].

sin is the choice of evil over good, like stepping over one good to get to another [because no one intentionally chooses evil, according to Catholicism; we choose what we think is good, so in every choice we choose God, but some choices are less complete than others]

however, if YHVH is infinite, how can humans generate these holes of existence/do evil through sin? wouldn't that mean that God is being limited by humans in some fashion [like, move out, i'm creating a hole here]? or am i totally getting it hardcore wrong?

YHVH creates evil. It's in Isa 45:7.

Sin within most transcendent theologies (Christendom included) is the choice of the temporal over the supernal.

Sin is basically a choice that violates Agape theologically speaking. Christians are called to love their god, their neighbor and their enemy. Any choices that turn one away from loving thoughts or actions are sin.

Humans have free will. Humans are able to choose to reject love or to commit an act that is not about love for YHVH and others, but places oneself before either or both.

Things that would inspire a person to sin include physical, mental or emotional gratification for example, premarital sex is a sin according to mainstream Christendom because they hold that sex needs to be within the marriage bed alone according to their god.

Forcing oneself on one's spouse is a sin because you're placing your need for power (or sex?) above the love for your partner.

Gho the Girl

What does being a shaman mean?

It's a practitioner of the North East Asian other world traditions belonging to the Turco-Mongols.

Other traditions have different names for people who practice traditions that have a similar cosmology.  

[TeaDidikai]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Since people notice similarities, is there any word which they can point to when they say it's like "this"? I mean in the case of people using the G word in fantasy genre, they often just mean nomads or a word similiar. I am current at a lost to describe these practioners of similar cosmology. Animistic priest/ess?

The misapplication of the term is usually centered around people who work in otherworld traditions.

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I really need to do some more research into orlog, wyrd, and hamingja. I'll admit that it has been a rather confusing subject for me!

My problem is that most of my understanding isn't from primary sources- so while I have an "understanding", I'm not sure of the quality in scholarship.

I don't have a reason to suspect it's poor scholarship (it's not like it's from the Ravenwolf of Norse Paganism or anything), but I always feel better when I know primary sources say I'm right.  

[Shearaha]

TeaDidikai

Shearaha

It's a term I heard a while ago and can't remember where. It was used to mean something similar to fate. In that because of what had gone before this is what was most likely to happen next. It could be changed but depending on how much "weight" the past had over it it could take the intervention of the Nords to change it.

My understanding is that Orlog binds the Norns themselves. Then you have Wyrd, which is a related concept- often when I talk about "Those Double Take Moments", most Norse pagans I know would describe it as awareness of Wyrd.

But I am pretty sure we're talking about Hamingja, since it is a force that runs through a family and a person and is effected by one's actions for good or ill.

Please understand this analogy is based on my understanding but:

Orlog is the riverbed, wyrd is a splash we notice even if we don't know what caused it and Hamingja is the current we feel.

Thank you so much. Now I've just got to find those notes.  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Gho the Girl

What does being a shaman mean?

It's a practitioner of the North East Asian other world traditions belonging to the Turco-Mongols.

Other traditions have different names for people who practice traditions that have a similar cosmology.

So, how come Native Americans are said to have "Shamans"? What often gets classified as a form of "Shamanism?" Would someone like DB who merely worships various spirits in their form of ecclectic paganism be more correct in using the term "animism" or is there some other appropriate and non-culture specific terms for spirit worship?

Also: thank you muchly for the reply. I'll stop referring to myself as a "shaman" and am sorry that I did as that was disrespectful to those who actually are. *burns fluff*  

[TeaDidikai]

Shearaha

Thank you so much. Now I've just got to find those notes.

Happy to help. Remember- I can't demonstrate the quality of scholarship involved, so take it with a grain of salt until you or someone else has something from a primary source that supports or debunks it.

Gho the Girl

So, how come Native Americans are said to have "Shamans"?

I'm going to be rather crass for a moment. The long and short of it is that white, middle aged, Protestant English and American Men were the ones who were doing most of the exploration and documentation of tribal cultures when Anthropology became an academic discipline in the West- or at least, in English speaking countries, these are the bulk of the people who influenced our education system.

Rather than build an understanding of individual cultures- they built a comparison structure that referred to things from alien cultures and from within their own culture. An analogy would be- this meal is made with flour and ground beef in Mexico. This meal is made with flour and ground beef in Africa. This meal is made with flour and ground beef in the US. In Mexico, it's a burrito. In Africa, it's Bobotie. In the US- ground beef and flour "is" a cheese burger- thus, rather than having to explain the complex differences between a burrito, bobotie and a Cheese Burger- they just said call that dish "Cheese Burger", because it's made of the same stuff.

Now- I used one familiar food and a more unusual one to illustrate a point. Most of us can take a glance and know that a burrito is not a Cheese Burger- we're familiar with it enough to smell bullshit if someone tried to tell us otherwise. But if you have no clue what bobotie is, and some "scholar" told you that it was an African Cheese Burger, you'd likely assume he knew what he was talking about. In fact- you might even pick up a couple spices from Africa, season your ground beef with it, make it into a cheese burger and call it a bobotie when you served it to your friends.

Welcome to what has happened to the word Shaman.

Try and find out what bobotie is. wink

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What often gets classified as a form of "Shamanism?"

Mostly stuff that is otherworld tradition- a lot of stripped down archetypal stuff.

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Would someone like DB who merely worships various spirits in their form of ecclectic paganism be more correct in using the term "animism" or is there some other appropriate and non-culture specific terms for spirit worship?

Need more information to say. What spirits? Worship how?

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Also: thank you muchly for the reply. I'll stop referring to myself as a "shaman" and am sorry that I did as that was disrespectful to those who actually are. *burns fluff*

No prob. Happy to help and I think it's awesome that you're trying to learn and being a thoughtful person.

Defluffing is a process after all.  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Shearaha

Thank you so much. Now I've just got to find those notes.

Happy to help. Remember- I can't demonstrate the quality of scholarship involved, so take it with a grain of salt until you or someone else has something from a primary source that supports or debunks it.

Gho the Girl

So, how come Native Americans are said to have "Shamans"?

I'm going to be rather crass for a moment. The long and short of it is that white, middle aged, Protestant English and American Men were the ones who were doing most of the exploration and documentation of tribal cultures when Anthropology became an academic discipline in the West- or at least, in English speaking countries, these are the bulk of the people who influenced our education system.

Rather than build an understanding of individual cultures- they built a comparison structure that referred to things from alien cultures and from within their own culture. An analogy would be- this meal is made with flour and ground beef in Mexico. This meal is made with flour and ground beef in Africa. This meal is made with flour and ground beef in the US. In Mexico, it's a burrito. In Africa, it's Bobotie. In the US- ground beef and flour "is" a cheese burger- thus, rather than having to explain the complex differences between a burrito, bobotie and a Cheese Burger- they just said call that dish "Cheese Burger", because it's made of the same stuff.

Now- I used one familiar food and a more unusual one to illustrate a point. Most of us can take a glance and know that a burrito is not a Cheese Burger- we're familiar with it enough to smell bullshit if someone tried to tell us otherwise. But if you have no clue what bobotie is, and some "scholar" told you that it was an African Cheese Burger, you'd likely assume he knew what he was talking about. In fact- you might even pick up a couple spices from Africa, season your ground beef with it, make it into a cheese burger and call it a bobotie when you served it to your friends.

Welcome to what has happened to the word Shaman.

That was very satisfactory, I appreciate it muchly.

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Try and find out what bobotie is. wink

Is that a dare? surprised My culinary flare is piqued!

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What often gets classified as a form of "Shamanism?"

Mostly stuff that is otherworld tradition- a lot of stripped down archetypal stuff.

Quote:

Would someone like DB who merely worships various spirits in their form of ecclectic paganism be more correct in using the term "animism" or is there some other appropriate and non-culture specific terms for spirit worship?

Need more information to say. What spirits? Worship how?

Spirits that represent animals that also represent concepts and ideas, but aren't very general in nature. One of the spirits I used to worship was a hyena but also represented ironic laughter and bad luck leading to happy occurences. Sort of "you'll get what you ask for but not how you want it, but it'll make you laugh later."

Worship mainly through prayer and offerings of food from my plate.

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Also: thank you muchly for the reply. I'll stop referring to myself as a "shaman" and am sorry that I did as that was disrespectful to those who actually are. *burns fluff*

No prob. Happy to help and I think it's awesome that you're trying to learn and being a thoughtful person.

Defluffing is a process after all.

It's frustrating though, and it's hard to tell what is good and what is utter fluff, at least to me, as I know so little.

This isn't against anybody, but it really sucks when you realise how ignorant you are. >.<  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

That was very satisfactory, I appreciate it muchly.

Happy it was useful.

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Is that a dare? surprised My culinary flare is piqued!

More a challenge. Heck- all the better if you end up making it!

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Spirits that represent animals that also represent concepts and ideas, but aren't very general in nature. One of the spirits I used to worship was a hyena but also represented ironic laughter and bad luck leading to happy occurences. Sort of "you'll get what you ask for but not how you want it, but it'll make you laugh later."

Worship mainly through prayer and offerings of food from my plate.

I wouldn't consider that description to be a solid grounding in "Otherworld Trads", if for no other reason than there isn't a mention of the other world. sweatdrop

There's a lack of work with non-corporeal reality, and a focus on non-corporeal beings.

My hipshot guess is that this is a foundation for a monistic (perhaps soft polytheistic) construct based largely on systems that are popular by virtue of Jung and Campbell's works.

I'm kicking myself because there's a formal word that contrasts with terms like fideism for a theology of veneration. I just can't remember it.

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It's frustrating though, and it's hard to tell what is good and what is utter fluff, at least to me, as I know so little.

This isn't against anybody, but it really sucks when you realise how ignorant you are. >.<

My suspicion is you know more and you've been more thoughtful than you give yourself credit for. But there is a lot of things that popular culture has ingrained that you'll have to reevaluate.

Hell- it happens to everyone. Anyone else remember what it was like to learn that George Washington didn't actually cut down that Cherry Tree?  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

I wouldn't consider that description to be a solid grounding in "Otherworld Trads", if for no other reason than there isn't a mention of the other world. sweatdrop

There's a lack of work with non-corporeal reality, and a focus on non-corporeal beings.

My hipshot guess is that this is a foundation for a monistic (perhaps soft polytheistic) construct based largely on systems that are popular by virtue of Jung and Campbell's works.

I'm kicking myself because there's a formal word that contrasts with terms like fideism for a theology of veneration. I just can't remember it.

What would classify as a "spirit world?" I believe in there being a reality beyond this one where our souls go after we die, but also is the webwork of soul that is behind everything, where we see that we are all connected spiritually. If one could look at this reality through a window from far away, so to speak (sort of like looking at the univers from above, if such a thing is possible) all souls appear to collect into one giant entity of spiritual conscious.

And I don't know enough about Jung (some, not a lot) and his work to say if you're right or wrong.

Part of the problem is that you're only getting little chips of clay and glass instead of me giving you the entire mosaic. When someone asks me a question, I tend to only give the most relevant information, which without a greater context can be misleading.
You could be right, but I want you to be aware that I might not have given you enough information. I'm still learning on how to properly communicate my spiritual beliefs.

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It's frustrating though, and it's hard to tell what is good and what is utter fluff, at least to me, as I know so little.

This isn't against anybody, but it really sucks when you realise how ignorant you are. >.<

My suspicion is you know more and you've been more thoughtful than you give yourself credit for. But there is a lot of things that popular culture has ingrained that you'll have to reevaluate.

DAMN YOU POP CULTURE!

Pop culture: What'd I do? *goes back to making trasy sitcoms.*

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Hell- it happens to everyone. Anyone else remember what it was like to learn that George Washington didn't actually cut down that Cherry Tree?

Yar.  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

What would classify as a "spirit world?"

That completely depends on the tradition (and in some cases, the sects in question). For example, some Asatru don't consider Asgard to be part of the "spirit world", though they do consider it to be part of the "other world" since it isn't Midgard. Others classify all things that are not Midgard as "spirit world".

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I believe in there being a reality beyond this one where our souls go after we die, but also is the webwork of soul that is behind everything, where we see that we are all connected spiritually. If one could look at this reality through a window from far away, so to speak (sort of like looking at the univers from above, if such a thing is possible) all souls appear to collect into one giant entity of spiritual conscious.

That's monism alright. Specifically a Monistic Emanation theology. Incredibly common actually. Deo and I feature amongst the better known guild members who fall into that category.

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And I don't know enough about Jung (some, not a lot) and his work to say if you're right or wrong.

No worries. My reason for this is that you are drawing from a very Western set of what read as "correspondences". Without myth and metaphor to explain them, they have to come from somewhere. Jungian Psychology has pervaded religious thought since the inception of Neopaganism.

When Nuri, or Cu, or Deo talk about their religious perspectives, they're drawing form source texts. They don't view Hecate as a "triple goddess of witchcraft and crossroads", or Freya as a goddess of "lust", but instead view them as people because of the lives they relate through their myths.

When you don't have myths, what sources can you draw from? Personal experience, UPG, community ideologies, most of which are influenced by popular culture.

Jungian psychology, symbolism and the comments that Campbell offered have become part of popular culture, an unspoken myth. (Ooo... I like the sound of that.)

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Part of the problem is that you're only getting little chips of clay and glass instead of me giving you the entire mosaic. When someone asks me a question, I tend to only give the most relevant information, which without a greater context can be misleading.
You could be right, but I want you to be aware that I might not have given you enough information. I'm still learning on how to properly communicate my spiritual beliefs.

Fair enough.  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Gho the Girl

What would classify as a "spirit world?"

That completely depends on the tradition (and in some cases, the sects in question). For example, some Asatru don't consider Asgard to be part of the "spirit world", though they do consider it to be part of the "other world" since it isn't Midgard. Others classify all things that are not Midgard as "spirit world".

Don't think I do then.

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I believe in there being a reality beyond this one where our souls go after we die, but also is the webwork of soul that is behind everything, where we see that we are all connected spiritually. If one could look at this reality through a window from far away, so to speak (sort of like looking at the univers from above, if such a thing is possible) all souls appear to collect into one giant entity of spiritual conscious.

That's monism alright. Specifically a Monistic Emanation theology. Incredibly common actually. Deo and I feature amongst the better known guild members who fall into that category.

Ah. Alright then. Does that mean I'm also monotheistic?

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And I don't know enough about Jung (some, not a lot) and his work to say if you're right or wrong.

No worries. My reason for this is that you are drawing from a very Western set of what read as "correspondences". Without myth and metaphor to explain them, they have to come from somewhere. Jungian Psychology has pervaded religious thought since the inception of Neopaganism.

When Nuri, or Cu, or Deo talk about their religious perspectives, they're drawing form source texts. They don't view Hecate as a "triple goddess of witchcraft and crossroads", or Freya as a goddess of "lust", but instead view them as people because of the lives they relate through their myths.

When you don't have myths, what sources can you draw from? Personal experience, UPG, community ideologies, most of which are influenced by popular culture.

Jungian psychology, symbolism and the comments that Campbell offered have become part of popular culture, an unspoken myth. (Ooo... I like the sound of that.)

Does this mean I'm wrong in my beliefs? Is my entire faith bunk, in all seriousness?

Could I do a reverse Jung and create myths and stories to personify these spirits and gods I worship?  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

Don't think I do then.

That's fine.
Something tells me that animism might be up your ally though. Just a hunch.

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Does that mean I'm also monotheistic?

Nope. Monism is a comment about substance, monotheism is a comment about the nature of deity.

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Does this mean I'm wrong in my beliefs? Is my entire faith bunk, in all seriousness?

Heavens no!

What I would say it means is that it needs further development. Deeper thought and exposure to a wider range of ideas in order to hone it. Jung and Campbell got a lot of things right- but if you begin and end there- you're playing in the psychological kiddie pool when it comes to religion- at least in my book.

That isn't to say it isn't a great start though.

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Could I do a reverse Jung and create myths and stories to personify these spirits and gods I worship?

You could. It would make you a right proper Chaos Magician if you added a bit of discipline and understanding to it. heart

You'd be constructing deity-shaped thoughforms, and those have their uses as well. Personally, I'd leave the tales up to the ones they are about, but that's just me.  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Gho the Girl

Don't think I do then.

That's fine.
Something tells me that animism might be up your ally though. Just a hunch.

I want to, am I? I already assign pretty much everything a personality. My cars especially, but also animals I interact with.

What is animism technically, and what would participating in animistic worship involve, as a baseline?

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Does that mean I'm also monotheistic?

Nope. Monism is a comment about substance, monotheism is a comment about the nature of deity.

I see. Thank you.

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Does this mean I'm wrong in my beliefs? Is my entire faith bunk, in all seriousness?

Heavens no!

What I would say it means is that it needs further development. Deeper thought and exposure to a wider range of ideas in order to hone it. Jung and Campbell got a lot of things right- but if you begin and end there- you're playing in the psychological kiddie pool when it comes to religion- at least in my book.

That isn't to say it isn't a great start though.

It's where I really got excited about my faith which was already budding, but I admit I kind of got distracted along the way.

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Could I do a reverse Jung and create myths and stories to personify these spirits and gods I worship?

You could. It would make you a right proper Chaos Magician if you added a bit of discipline and understanding to it. heart

You'd be constructing deity-shaped thoughforms, and those have their uses as well. Personally, I'd leave the tales up to the ones they are about, but that's just me.

So, I could write them down if I ask them, yes?