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 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:06 am
At first I was a little afraid to ask because this is one of the most well known stories in the Torah right? Where G-d orders Abraham to sacrifice him Isaac but then tells him not to do so as human sacrifices are a sin but G-d thanks Abraham for obeying him anyway. My question is, why does G-d do this in the first place? I mean, I know G-d isn't human and his reasoning is often "beyond human understanding" (which I find a little fishy, although that's another topic...) but it seems a bit bloody sadistic to order a man to kill his own son just to see if he's loyal enough to obey him in the first place. I know I'm probably ignorant in taking this at face value but G-d isn't above his own covenant and I need to know why he does things so I can understand Him more.
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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:48 am
My understanding, handed to me by multiple rabbis over the years, is that the test wasn't "would Avraham be willing to kill his son Yitzchak at Hashem's order," but rather, "would Avraham be listening for the voice that told him to stop, and would he in fact stop?"
Look a few verses before Avraham and Yitzchak get up the mountain. Avraham is telling his men, "You wait here. The boy and I will go up the mountain and pray, and then we'll come back down to you." He says clearly, "We will come back down." Right there, he has the faith to be sure of his words: he is certain Hashem will let Yitzchak live and walk back down the mountain with his father. What he doesn't know is whether this will be because Hashem doesn't require the sacrifice after all, or whether he will sacrifice the boy and then the boy will be resurrected on the spot. But he does have the faith to speak as if Yitzchak will live to return down the mountain and back to his home.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:54 am
My point of view is that G-d had chosen Avraham in a sense to be the first Jew (although I have a different opinion about when Judaism actually started but I wont talk about that here). Because of this He tested Avraham in many ways to see his loyalty. This sacrifice of his son that G-d told Avraham to do was a test. Did Avraham want to kill his son? No. Although, since G-d told him to do it, and he would do whatever G-d told him to do because he trusted Him, he would have done it. G-d would not have actually let Isaac die, but he saw that Avraham really was loyal.
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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:16 am
I can safely say that HASHEM isn't a sadist.
Sure the old testament is full of destroyed cities and dead babies. But it's not a pleasurable thing for him.
Sadists gain pleasure from the pain of others. Sadism is a power trip, for school bullies and bitter police officers.
HASHEM does not smile down upon the cities of Sodom and Ghemorra before the fire hits them.
HASHEM does not smile upon the Egyptians before killing their children.
HASHEM is HASHEM. The great judge, he is objective, calculating and protective of his people.
He doesn't enjoy being the unstoppable killing machine. If HASHEM was a sadist Noah wouldn't of survived the flood and all humans would be dead already.
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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:45 pm
Quote: My understanding, handed to me by multiple rabbis over the years, is that the test wasn't "would Avraham be willing to kill his son Yitzchak at Hashem's order," but rather, "would Avraham be listening for the voice that told him to stop, and would he in fact stop?" Hmm, that's a really good interpretation. Quote: Look a few verses before Avraham and Yitzchak get up the mountain. Avraham is telling his men, "You wait here. The boy and I will go up the mountain and pray, and then we'll come back down to you." He says clearly, "We will come back down." Right there, he has the faith to be sure of his words: he is certain Hashem will let Yitzchak live and walk back down the mountain with his father. What he doesn't know is whether this will be because Hashem doesn't require the sacrifice after all, or whether he will sacrifice the boy and then the boy will be resurrected on the spot. But he does have the faith to speak as if Yitzchak will live to return down the mountain and back to his home. Wow, this is actually a really satisfying interpretation. Thanks Divash! Quote: My point of view is that G-d had chosen Avraham in a sense to be the first Jew (although I have a different opinion about when Judaism actually started but I wont talk about that here). Because of this He tested Avraham in many ways to see his loyalty. This sacrifice of his son that G-d told Avraham to do was a test. Did Avraham want to kill his son? No. Although, since G-d told him to do it, and he would do whatever G-d told him to do because he trusted Him, he would have done it. G-d would not have actually let Isaac die, but he saw that Avraham really was loyal. This is the straight interpretation I wasn't satisfied with, the idea that G-d just "wanted to see if Avraham would obey him" as if G-d has some sort of weird psychological domination fetish. Quote: I can safely say that HASHEM isn't a sadist. I like to think so too, but there are certain areas of scripture that, at face value, tend to seem otherwise to me. So I try to learn more and ask for help as best as I can.
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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:38 pm
Is the discussion over already?
How about this: What would you have said to the order to kill your son?
I really couldn't say. confused
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Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:35 pm
I have another question. (I'm sorry to bother you all like this, but I sadly don't have the convenience of a Rabbi to aid me in my studies).
Why does G-d completely torture and ruin Job? I have searched on the internet for answers but all I seem to read so far is Christian sources claiming that G-d did it to "test" Job's faith, which is insane and I can't accept it. What are your interpretations of this story?
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:59 am
itsthatKat Why does G-d completely torture and ruin Job? I have searched on the internet for answers but all I seem to read so far is Christian sources claiming that G-d did it to "test" Job's faith, which is insane and I can't accept it. What are your interpretations of this story? To remind us all how hard it is to be Jewish and be good at it. There's an old joke. HASHEM takes one person from all the different regions of the earth. He lines them up in front of a large canal filled with sharks, piranha, electric eels and all sorts of other nasties. HASHEM calls out that He will give the Torah to the people who's representative crosses this canal. Suddenly an Israelite goes in the water and starts frantically swimming across. All the other people stare at this one's absolute devotion to HASHEM and how he dodges crocodiles and hippos as he swims passed carnivorous animals, escaping their jaws. Once he crosses to the other side, the Israelite looks across the water and yells. "WHO PUSHED ME IN?!" It's not always a choice if you're Jewish, sometimes you're just born into a lifestyle that's tricky to maintain. Some don't make it to the other side of the water and some don't even bother going in the canal. The ones who respect the laws, follow the Talmud, Torah, Zohar, Midrash and everything else which defines our culture find that they are rewarded at the end. However, it's a long and hard journey. If it was easy, everyone would do it.
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:37 pm
Quote: To remind us all how hard it is to be Jewish and be good at it. But this still doesn't answer why Hashem felt the sudden need to completely torture the poor sod, over and over again. Quote: There's an old joke. HASHEM takes one person from all the different regions of the earth. He lines them up in front of a large canal filled with sharks, piranha, electric eels and all sorts of other nasties. HASHEM calls out that He will give the Torah to the people who's representative crosses this canal. Suddenly an Israelite goes in the water and starts frantically swimming across. All the other people stare at this one's absolute devotion to HASHEM and how he dodges crocodiles and hippos as he swims passed carnivorous animals, escaping their jaws. Once he crosses to the other side, the Israelite looks across the water and yells. "WHO PUSHED ME IN?!" It's not always a choice if you're Jewish, sometimes you're just born into a lifestyle that's tricky to maintain. Some don't make it to the other side of the water and some don't even bother going in the canal. The ones who respect the laws, follow the Talmud, Torah, Zohar, Midrash and everything else which defines our culture find that they are rewarded at the end. However, it's a long and hard journey. If it was easy, everyone would do it. I know, for sure. I want so hard to have G-d mitvot upon me, to join this wonderful amazing group of people, but sometimes I think that perhaps I'm just not good enough, you know?
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:39 pm
itsthatKat I know, for sure. I want so hard to have G-d mitvot upon me, to join this wonderful amazing group of people, but sometimes I think that perhaps I'm just not good enough, you know? And that's why it's called a religious practice... no one's perfect, so they have to keep practicing. So don't feel to bad about it, considering my major backslides, you'll be just fine.
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:00 pm
LordNeuf itsthatKat I know, for sure. I want so hard to have G-d mitvot upon me, to join this wonderful amazing group of people, but sometimes I think that perhaps I'm just not good enough, you know? And that's why it's called a religious practice... no one's perfect, so they have to keep practicing. So don't feel to bad about it, considering my major backslides, you'll be just fine. If we're tallking about human error and religion, I know tons about that.
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