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Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:19 pm
Well me and josh constantly talk about the undead and... Well we really don't talk about it, he just teaches me about it because i know very little.
Anyhow. What kinds of undead are you into and how much do you know about them?
Now when i say "Undead" I don't generally mean the living dead, what i mean is what do you like out of the Gothic, sinister creature category (Zombies, Cyclops, werewolves, etc, etc, etc)
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Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:27 am
Well, one of those creatures that has always piqued my interest is the Lich. They are, perhaps, one of the more dangerous of the "undead" creatures simply because the only way to truly kill them is by destroying their phylactory. Can't find it? Oh, well- looks like that lich is coming back soon.
Another reason that they interest me is because- despite the fact that they are considered to be "evil" and "malicious" beings because of their means, most of them are in it to further their knowledge and, therefore, their power. They are, more often than not, wizards or sorcerers who felt that their mortal bodies were too weak, too temporal to effectively allow them to gather the knowledge that they yearn for, so they made a conscious effort to give themselve the closest thing to true immortality that they have the power to do- by placing their life-force (and their entire by being) into a single object which is to become their phylactory.
Perhaps I may have misread some of my information in my studies, but that is how I feel a true lich operates, and with no concern to the life of others. Because of their immortality, the vast majority of liches view any living creature as a disposable means to further their ends; however, there have been a few reports of "good" liches over the years who try to aide people with their knowledge rather than harm them.
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Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:16 pm
Eliae Darr Well, one of those creatures that has always piqued my interest is the Lich. They are, perhaps, one of the more dangerous of the "undead" creatures simply because the only way to truly kill them is by destroying their phylactory. Can't find it? Oh, well- looks like that lich is coming back soon. Another reason that they interest me is because- despite the fact that they are considered to be "evil" and "malicious" beings because of their means, most of them are in it to further their knowledge and, therefore, their power. They are, more often than not, wizards or sorcerers who felt that their mortal bodies were too weak, too temporal to effectively allow them to gather the knowledge that they yearn for, so they made a conscious effort to give themselve the closest thing to true immortality that they have the power to do- by placing their life-force (and their entire by being) into a single object which is to become their phylactory. Perhaps I may have misread some of my information in my studies, but that is how I feel a true lich operates, and with no concern to the life of others. Because of their immortality, the vast majority of liches view any living creature as a disposable means to further their ends; however, there have been a few reports of "good" liches over the years who try to aide people with their knowledge rather than harm them. All of your information is correct, or at least cohessive to what I have found. Liches were always at least among my favorite as well. In fact, were I to become an undead, I would want most to become a lich with ghouls being a close second (provided that I would be able to keep/recover the memories I had of being alive, which ghouls typically lose).
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:12 am
Well, it's good to know that our research on the Lich have coincided with each other. Having brought that information out in th open and being given the approval on it brings me to a point that I was discussing with a friend of mine here in Rockford a few weeks ago.
If a lich can create a phylactory, then why shouldn't it be allowed to make more than one? Granted, with several phylactories, there would be a distinct disadvantage in that the being's power would be split, but it would take much longer to kill it, particularly if the lich spread them out over a wide area.
Of course, if the lich's body were to be destroyed and its phylactories untouched, this would cause he energy to be split up amongst any and all phylactories. Because of the split, it is also of my belief that it would be required that all phylactories be brought together in order for the lich to be able to come back, presumably by taking control of the mind of whoever happens to be the first weak-willed person to approach each peice. Once brought together, the lich could then regenerate its old body or take over one of the living men or women who helped to bring the phylactories together- but only if its body was unsalvagable. Of course, once it has been given a body to inhabit again, anyone left under its control would probably be immediately killed to become a part of its undead horde, following by an immediate scattering of its phylactories to prevent an intruder from accidentally destroying one.
Naturally, though, if one phylactory were to be destroyed, one of two things could happen. The first- and most likely, I think- would be that each destroyed phylactory of the lich's would weaken it by that much. For instance, if a lich were to create five phylactories upon achieving its immortality and one of them were to be destroyed, one-fifth of its hit dice in D&D would be removed. The second, which I think is a bit more far-fetched, though still possible, is that the power from the destroyed phylactory would be transferred to those that remain. However, as with a magical item that is destroyed, that goes against some rules that D&D has set down- namely that any destroyed item of magical properties releases its energy into the air around it, dissapating in a way concurent with the item itself (a Staff of the Magi, for instance, explodes upon being broken whereas a Thundering Longsword would just let loose the spell in a relatively harmless fashion).
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:53 am
I don't like undead stuff All i know that they are scary ;___;
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:11 pm
My favorite undead creature by far is the ghoul. (Favorite magician/ritualist is a necromancer)
They are smart yet they are undead and they eat flesh!
That's all i know about them thus far but I'm in the learning process.
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:51 pm
anti-gen My favorite undead creature by far is the ghoul. (Favorite magician/ritualist is a necromancer) They are smart yet they are undead and they eat flesh! That's all i know about them thus far but I'm in the learning process. OH YEAH, I KNOW THAT VAMPIRES SUCK BLOOD. OOOOOOH.
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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:57 pm
Sylphidee anti-gen My favorite undead creature by far is the ghoul. (Favorite magician/ritualist is a necromancer) They are smart yet they are undead and they eat flesh! That's all i know about them thus far but I'm in the learning process. OH YEAH, I KNOW THAT VAMPIRES SUCK BLOOD. OOOOOOH. Not all vampires do! Good try though dear.
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Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:28 pm
anti-gen Sylphidee anti-gen My favorite undead creature by far is the ghoul. (Favorite magician/ritualist is a necromancer) They are smart yet they are undead and they eat flesh! That's all i know about them thus far but I'm in the learning process. OH YEAH, I KNOW THAT VAMPIRES SUCK BLOOD. OOOOOOH. Not all vampires do! Good try though dear. WELL I KNOW THAT THEY ARE PALE, UNLESS THEY PUT SOME TANNED LOTION ON ! >3<< OHHH
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Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:46 am
annnnndd, they are allergic to onion? and they are imortal and they have super human powers like super strength and super speed :3
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Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:26 pm
if I may step in, I have taken notice from many movies that the facts about vampires change around alot. the only think Ive seen that stays the same is coming out at night and staying pale... ^^;
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Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:45 pm
Oh, so much to say... Eliae Darr If a lich can create a phylactory, then why shouldn't it be allowed to make more than one? Granted, with several phylactories, there would be a distinct disadvantage in that the being's power would be split, but it would take much longer to kill it, particularly if the lich spread them out over a wide area.
The reason, to my thinking, is that the lich's soul or spirit (according to some GMs, also the heart) is contained with the phylactery. If it could exist in any sort of duplicity, the importance of the object would be too far diminished, so I wouldn't allow such a thing when running a game. It also offers less encouragement (for any PC wishing to become a lich) to find a truly clever place to hide one, though this is all in the scope of D & D terms. I have to ask, though...Was this idea, by any chance, inspired by Harry Potter? Eliae Darr Of course, if the lich's body were to be destroyed and its phylactories untouched, this would cause he energy to be split up amongst any and all phylactories. Because of the split, it is also of my belief that it would be required that all phylactories be brought together in order for the lich to be able to come back, presumably by taking control of the mind of whoever happens to be the first weak-willed person to approach each peice.
Interesting point. As it happens the dracolich (liches that began as dragons) works something like this, but it requires a reptilian corpse, rather than weak-willed individual. If memory serves, it first animates as is and then gradually takes on the features and characteristics of the original dracolich. The reason for the difference is likely because of the size. While a human of average size could reconstitute, reforming it's bones in the confines of some forgotten place, imagine the difficulty the bones of a colossal creatures might find staying hidden. Eliae Darr Naturally, though, if one phylactory were to be destroyed, one of two things could happen. The first- and most likely, I think- would be that each destroyed phylactory of the lich's would weaken it by that much. For instance, if a lich were to create five phylactories upon achieving its immortality and one of them were to be destroyed, one-fifth of its hit dice in D&D would be removed. The second, which I think is a bit more far-fetched, though still possible, is that the power from the destroyed phylactory would be transferred to those that remain. However, as with a magical item that is destroyed, that goes against some rules that D&D has set down- namely that any destroyed item of magical properties releases its energy into the air around it, dissapating in a way concurent with the item itself (a Staff of the Magi, for instance, explodes upon being broken whereas a Thundering Longsword would just let loose the spell in a relatively harmless fashion).
Not a bad idea, the power dissipation bit, but the HD deduction...It gets messy real quick. Personally I'd avoid it. anti-gen My favorite undead creature by far is the ghoul. (Favorite magician/ritualist is a necromancer) They are smart yet they are undead and they eat flesh! That's all i know about them thus far but I'm in the learning process. The ghouls are interesting creatures. Middle eastern in origin, they are actually related, mythologically to the effret, which are, in essence, a form of demon. Most undead do have fiendish roots, if you follow their origins back far enough. They are my favorite as well. I discovered I related to them quite well. The idea of sinking my teeth into flesh, while scrapping over bones, and then tearing it off with a savage jerk of my head is quite enjoyable. Yes, watching me eat chicken wings is quite the site indeed. It would be no exaggeration to say the I crack the bones open between my teeth and suck out the marrow. It's delicious. If you've seen the state of my favorite sort of meat, you would find another reason that I relate so easily to ghouls. I also love the texture of female flesh between my teeth, though for obvious reason, I soften my bites significantly in cases of the latter. anti-gen Sylphidee OH YEAH, I KNOW THAT VAMPIRES SUCK BLOOD. OOOOOOH. Not all vampires do! Good try though dear. Yes they do. The term "Vampire," comes from a Greek word that translates to "Drink." Drinking blood is pretty much the one and only trait that the dreadfully ill-conceived modern vampire has actually kept. In any case, if it doesn't even drink blood, it is not a vampire. metal_puppie if I may step in, I have taken notice from many movies that the facts about vampires change around alot. the only think Ive seen that stays the same is coming out at night and staying pale... ^^; The bit about being pale is more the modern vampire. Pre 16th century, the vampire skin was too rotten to rightly be called pale.
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Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:42 pm
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:28 am
Matasoga The reason, to my thinking, is that the lich's soul or spirit (according to some GMs, also the heart) is contained with the phylactery. If it could exist in any sort of duplicity, the importance of the object would be too far diminished, so I wouldn't allow such a thing when running a game. It also offers less encouragement (for any PC wishing to become a lich) to find a truly clever place to hide one, though this is all in the scope of D & D terms. I have to ask, though...Was this idea, by any chance, inspired by Harry Potter? First, I would like to answer your question; yes, in some ways, it was inspired by the sixth Harry Potter book. However, it that is the only point at which it really seems to connect. While the idea of seven phylacteries is interesting, it is, indeed, quite difficult and very bothersome to play out. Obviously, even the idea of multiple phylactories would have to be agreed upon by the DM/GM (take your pick of what to call it), but it does allow for a different aspect of creativity. Obviously, some would do it simply for the sheer difficulty of successfully finding all of the parts- there are limitations as to how many can be utilized by the lich, which I will get into later- but some would do it because of the kind of puzzles they can set up with their phylacteries. While they may not need the same kind of creativity to hide one, they can use a slightly modified mode of thought from that same section of their brain to work to cleverly hide more than one of them.
The interesting part of having multiple phylacteries, though, is that, should the heart be required as a part of the object, you can still section it out. In all technicalities, a heart has four sections- and yes, I am perfectly aware of the fact that all four sections have to be together to work properly- allowing for a maximum of four phylacteries should such a component be required. Matasoga Interesting point. As it happens the dracolich (liches that began as dragons) works something like this, but it requires a reptilian corpse, rather than weak-willed individual. If memory serves, it first animates as is and then gradually takes on the features and characteristics of the original dracolich. The reason for the difference is likely because of the size. While a human of average size could reconstitute, reforming it's bones in the confines of some forgotten place, imagine the difficulty the bones of a colossal creatures might find staying hidden. One thing that I noticed that I forgot to mention with my initial post regarding this is that if the lich dominated more than one individual to gather the phylacteries, it would, of course, have the option of which one to take as its own corpse. Obviously, the person would have to be killed first, but if they have even one skeleton around under their control and the dominated person, then it wouldn't be much of an issue. With two or more people transporting the phylacteries- particularly if they were people who normally don't like each other- a fight to the death would be easy to arrange. Matasoga Not a bad idea, the power dissipation bit, but the HD deduction...It gets messy real quick. Personally I'd avoid it. You see, Josh, this is why people like me think of these things. While I may not have all of the details tweaked regarding the destruction and limitation the phylacteries, I do have a general idea worked out.
Due to the sheer amount of power necessary to become a lich in the first place, it would be natural to assume that it would take a much more powerful lich to create two or more. As it is required for a lich to be of at least 11th level by D&D standards, I would add a required two to four levels per additional phylactory to be created- I haven't decided which would be better just yet, though I'm thinking that the upper end of that short scale would be best to deter this as much as possible. No phylacteries can be added after the character has already become a lich. If the character is not of the required level for the desired number of phylactories when they decide to undergo the process of becoming a lich, then they cannot have that number. Honestly, though, I would limit the number of phylacteries that can be created to six; as it is, that would require, by the four-level scale, a minimum level of 31, which is an insanely high level as it is. There is no need for any more than that, though it may be an even better idea to just limit it at four phylacteries- which would still force the character to be of at least 23rd level.
Now, regarding the destruction of phylactories and hit die deduction, the reason I even bothered to bring it up is actually quite simple; if your soul were suddenly have a chunk of it missing, wouldn't it be natural to assume that you wouldn't be nearly as power, strong or capable as you were before? If a 20th level lich with two phylacteries were to have one destroyed, then wouldn't it be natural to assume that it would lose an equivilent portion of its hit die? Though it would still be considered a 20th level character for all intents and purposes of spell levels and capabilities, it would lose half of its hit points- and probably some of its abilities, skills, feats, and spells, too, since I'm sure that some of them would be stored up within the phylactories as a part of the loss of spirit/soul. Also, if a 20th level lich were to have three phylactories instead of two, I would say that the two phylactories destroyed would remove (each) roughly one-third of the lich's powers and seven of its hit dice.
However, if the DM were to decide that it would be better to deal with it in the fashion that the power would spread to the other phylacteries rather than to just vanish, I would still cause the lich to be weakened for a time afterwards- perhaps 1d4 hours per hit die of the lich or the phylactery?- as a way of notifying the being that a phylactery was destroyed- and as a way to give the PC's an easier chance to temporarily remove the threat of the lich while they look for the rest of the phylacteries should contact be made. While I personally feel that this option is a bit too easy to use, it would be better for higher-level campaigns and actually cause the lich to be more of a threat than a nuisance after the first phylactery were to be destroyed.
Another thing that I would like to note is that any levels and additional abilities gained after becoming a lich would be included on the last phylactery made for added simplicity to both the PC's and the DM. For instance, if a 23rd level wizard were to become a lich with two phylacteries and then gained an additional five levels after becoming undead- bringing it to level 28- it would have 12 levels on the first phylactery and 16 on the second, which originally only held 11, as it is impossible to "halve" a level in D&D. Again, this is an idea to avoid additional- and almost certainly unnecessary- complexity to an already complicated concept. Also note that if a PC were to become a lich using this process, make sure that they describe all of the phylacteries, even if briefly, so that there is some distinction between them- and make sure that they were given an order of creation. If the PC fails to order and/or describe the phylacteries, then it is up to the DM to do so as they see fit.
Feel free to discuss this with any of your friends who also play D&D. While I know it would be difficult to include in a campaign (unless I were the DM, that is), I do believe that it is entirely feasible for it to not only happen, but to work. While it may not be as annoying as trying to find that one phylactery for the lich that's been bothering you for the past three campaign years, it would cause the lich to pose more of a constant threat to the PC's until all phylacteries were to be located and destroyed, particularly if the power were to transfer between the phylacteries rather than just disappate into the air and destroying the lich bit by bit.
This could also make an interesting mid-level campaign if the hit-die reduction variant were to be used, as it could potentially bring an epic-level lich down to an amount of hit dice that the PC's could actually handle given the spell level of the lich- the last phylactery, of course, being carried with the lich, a place that, until all other phylacteries were destroyed, would be out of reach from the players.
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:48 am
Rather than quote the last post, I think the most important thing to note is that according to Libris Mortis, the destruction of a lich's phylactery does not in any way, effect the lich, but it cannot create a new one. With this new set of rules regarding hit point divisions (which still doesn't account for a plethora of unusual circumstances like level adjustments and multi-classing) you're not only altering game mechanics, but also the fundamental manner in which the idea of the phylactery works. All in all it's not a bad idea, but it heavily alters a great deal of rather fundamental things...But lets get back to a more general discussion apart from D & D, so even those how don't play can get more out of the conversation.
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