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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:33 pm


Discuss about the mirror here.

The mirror should have some inscriptions around the edge.

1) Symbols - I think we need to make our own ancient alphabet to use for inscriptions in SS. A while ago I made one sort of but it's gone... Anyway some thoughts on that:

a) Every letter represents one sound. There will be no confusing pronunciations as in English or any other languages. There will be a *definite* way to say a word, there will be no special rules like "the g is silent in caught." Here's a list of what I remember so far:

ah
a (as in cat)
e (as in speak)
eh (as in when)
i (as in win)
o
u (as in you)
uh (as in hug)
b
s
sh
ch
d
f
g (as in goal)
j (as in geography)
h (silent letters will not exist, this is h as in host/hah/who < w is silent, o is pronounced as u)
k (as in cat)
l
m
n
ng
p
q
r
t
th
v
w
y
z

Letters with similar sounds have been eliminated. I can't think of anymore sounds than this atm.

Also I think this ancient "language" should use binary instead of decimal. So they will have a symbol for 1 and a symbol for 0. The language should look oversimplified, in that nothing can be confused. It should strive to be extremely definite in meaning.

b) The letters should be very simple. I think they should only use straight lines, but am considering curved as to its meaning/other properties (zero, circles, arcs, pi, etc.)

Other aspects of this ancient language can be decided later, mostly need the letters atm. May make up the grammar/structure/other stuff about it.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:42 pm


Hmmm okay. That makes sense. So, what do we want the inscription to say?

Koneko Kuromira

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:47 am


Maybe something along the lines of "In god we trust." Or something spiritual I guess (in the ancient language OC).

Also there will need to be symbols for punctuation marks.

Semi-colon
Exclamation point
Period
Colon
Question mark
Comma
Quotes (there will be no single/double quotes, just quotes)

Can't think of any other ones atm. I'm also questioning the usefulness of quotes. Maybe won't have quotes in this language. Not sure about parenthesis/brackets/curly brackets.

They will not have multiple symbols for the same thing though. Like the & = and. Or # = number.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:28 am


Oh! If we're going to be spelling everything phonetically, every dictionary has a pronunciation key with specific letters for the sounds of things. We can use that as a guide and then make symbols for each of those "letters."

I like the whole spiritual idea. I've been trying to come up with some deep sayings or something that goes along with what the Muteki Shield is/does. Like maybe:

What will be reflects in me.
(or in the phonetic language)
Wuht wil bee reflehks ihn mee. (or something like that)

I found a good website that might help with this.

Koneko Kuromira

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:39 pm


OH! IDEA! I know it's not original, but would you be against using Tengwar script (the elvin writing from Lord of the Rings)? I recently found a phonetic translation thing for all their symbols, so I could play around with that . . . just an idea though. If anything, we can use it simply as an idea pool so to speak so our task of making something totally new is easier . . .
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:34 pm


For the sake of identification, the language's "code name" will be Zuyǔ. This is until we properly name it.

Yeah we're going to have to fully develop this language. The SS saga where the gods are introduced is coming 2 or 3 sagas next, I think. We'll have to have the Zuyǔ language speakable by then cuz that's what the gods will be speaking at first.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing with the dictionary. Looks like we're going to have to sift through because I already spotted some redundancies:

1st) cup, luck
5th) away, cinema

These are the same.

Just by skimming over the Tengawr alphabet I can see it's too curly/fancy/complex to be a base for Zuyǔ. I think straight lines will more represent Zuyǔ's rigidness. Also I can't imagine scribbling Tengwar down, it looks like it takes too much time to write it (one reason I attempted to make my own phonetic-based alphabet was for faster note taking in college)

Each letter should require minimal amount of strokes to write (kind of like Morse code except a whole language not just code). I'm considering curved lines, but that has the potential to be less readable for certain circumstances.

Speaking of Morse code, letter frequency of current languages will be used to determine which sounds/letters will get the least amount of strokes (like how Morse code works sort of). The most frequently used letters need the least amount of strokes. Letter frequency statistics can be googled or found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequencies (imagine if this language were type-able on a computer, just train yourself to hit the correct key when you hear a sound and bam, instant translation from speech to notes)

2) Words - Basic/elemental words will consist of short syllables so that other complex words can be constructed with them by combining them together. Ex (not official, just for the sake of an example):

Ri = red
bo = blue
Ribo = purple (ri + bo)

Letters may represent a word/idea too. Certain words/letters may need to be reserved so that some are for constructing words that can't be made with elements while others can be combined. Words should be simple/straight to the point as possible. Also there should not be synonyms if possible (good/well only 1 word). Strive to be simple (simplifying stuff usually ends up being a lot of work though lol >.<)

We'll have to keep a list (dictionary) somewhere to keep track of the words so far.

For now, we should be able to get away with inconsistencies with the language we present at first then if we change it later. The language could have changed over many years, so what's on the mirror doesn't have to be exact (what's on the shield may be "wrong" in the future, but we can say it was written so long ago and the language was different back then). So we should be able to get away with making inscriptions before the language is "finalized", as long as we take note of the changes.

3) Grammar - Still thinking on what would be the most simplest with this. I was thinking about combining 2nd/3rd person as just 3rd person. Not sure about singular/plural. Redundancy needs to be lowered if it makes things simpler (so that there aren't so many ways to do the same thing).

4) Structure - Still thinking on what the best sentence structure would be. Subject/verb/object, object/verb/subject. May be able to eliminate the need for a period/punctuation marks. May not if it could make the language too vague/unspecific/confusing.

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Koneko Kuromira

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:47 pm


Yeah, I understand that Tengwar's too loopy and such to work, but at least using their phonetic list as a basis for what we need, to get rid of those redundancies.

Also, we gotta be careful with using just straight lines. Those can get confusing depending on how we use the lines (not knowing what's just one letter or something like that). I dunno. Look at Greek alphabet maybe for ideas?

I'll keep looking into it, hey?

(edit/add-in) Another thought: If we're making up a whole nother language, then the letter frequency for the English language won't do us any good, since it'll be different for Zuya. Just sayin' . . .
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:08 pm


Okay. Idea! Idea! I tried to run it past you using the IM thing, but since it kept crashing . . . here we go!

Instead of coming up with individual sounds for letters and such, why don't we just go with syllables, like in Hiragana or Katakana. That way, words such as "ri" for red or "bo" for blue will only be one character instead of two. Then, it's easier to recognize "ribo" as being purple since it's "ri" + "bo".

I don't know if it'd be easier or harder to do this, but I thought I'd make the suggestion.

Koneko Kuromira

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:28 pm


Added ng. Cannot be produced with n + g. The tip of your tongue isn't used to sound words like wing or rung. The back of your tongue is used to make this sound.

After much analysis I decided that the (th) in both/think and mother are the same:

(Zuya)
both
thihngk (just realized this word uses the ng sound)
dthe ("the", dth = width)
muhzthr
vihzshn (z + sh combine into a "new" sound, was very hard to determine this)
plehzhr

EDIT: I thought [ih] wasn't a sound (just silent) but words like fish, wish, dish, list and hissed cannot be made without it.

Just found out, lots of symbols can be made with just one/two straight lines (26 so far) but some are too similar so I don't think they should count.

NEW: Dots and circles can be used to construct symbols.

I'm thinking 1's will just be by a straight line | and 0's will be dots floating in the middle.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:58 pm


Will have digits and dots and ever thing nice lol. Bibobobot lol i love how that's going to sound ill be looking and thinking about it too now that you said something about that.

Raptor022


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:14 am


Missed one. Removed i (as in high). This can be created with ah + e.

hahe

Removed ih (as in win) and changed it to i (as in win).

zthis
win
sin
fin
linin
with
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:25 pm


Shield Size: It should be big enough to completely block the wielder's body when they are crouched behind it. That way it's not too big, not too small. Not sure what exact measurements this is though.

Edit: I'm going to set up a wiki for this. There's too much information to do this on a forum. We can still use Gaia until I get a wiki setup.

Edit: Okay I started a wiki... >.< gonna take a while for me to organize it.

Edit again: Had no idea how much work it would take just to start a wiki O.O Can't think right now ima crash and do it later.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:40 pm


Okay got the wiki started. I setup a page to design Zuyu` at http://riseupko.wikidot.com/zuyu

EDIT: Removed letter Q.

Renamed it to Zuyu` to reflect correct roman alphabet conversion. You can type the little apostrophe looking thing (`) with the key all the way on the left, before the 1/! key (the `/~ key, which you probably don't use too much).
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:02 pm


ummmmmmmmm interesting ok

tadase-king chara

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