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When we got the idea for this guild, Sola and I, decided that our main goal would be education. And recent anti-Peta/PETA threads got me to thinking that we should have a thread that looks at the actions of popular animal movements. This is not going to be a flame thread, we want to discuss facts that are based on cited evidence. I don't want to center on just PETA either. My biggest goal with this thread is to let everyone know what organizations are worthy of our support and which ones engage in questionable activities.

The first thing I want to discuss is the difference between Animal Rights movements, and Anti-Animal Cruelty movements.

Anti Animal Cruelty issues are exactly what they sound like. I subscribe to this movement, personally. I oppose the unneccesary abuse of animals raised for food, clothing, entertinament or for any other reason. I oppose cruelty to animals, in short.

Animal rights on the other hand, use Anti Cruelty ideas to further an agenda that supports stopping the use of animal products, animal breeding, and the enjoyment of animals as companions. They think that every animals life should be shown the same consideration as a humans life, and that every right we enjoy should be no different than the rights of animals. This creates several problems and paradoxes for the world we live in, and some of their ideas are not very well thought out.

For example, PETA beleives that animals are not to be sued for food. The problem with this idea is that Humans, by nature, are omnivorous. Which means that nature intended for us to eat meat.

So every week, I'm going to research and explore the ideas and practices of some of the more popular organizations. Which will include organizations of the two movements we've discussed in this post...as well as shelters and dog rescues.

If anyone has any questions, request, or just want to add to the discussion all comments are welcome. But please, no flaming these organizations...let's just stick to the facts and our opinions of those facts.

Thanks.

I'll be making my first report in the next 24-48 hours...I'm going to cover PETA first, everyone's favorite organization. *evil snicker*

PETA, or People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, is a "non profit" organization that focuses on Animal Rights. Their belief is that Animals are not ours to eat, not ours to wear, not ours to experiment with and not ours for entertainment purposes.

They can often be found protesting shelters, pet stores, meat packing plants, and medical labs. Some of their more famous campaigns were the "I'd rather go naked then wear fur" ads, an ad which compared the food processing industry to Nazi Germany, and numerous calls for boycotss on the Petco Pet Supply chain.

On the surface they seem to be a well intention organization, fighting for animal welfare. This warm and fuzzy exterior draws in thousands of supporters every year. But very few people, really look at the issues that concern PETA, or it's many hypocritical acts and beliefs.

Let's first look at their beliefs and evaluate them one by one.

1. Animals are not ours to eat.

The problem with this belief is that it is unnatural to the order of nature. Humans by instinct and nature are omnivorous. We are both HUTERS and gatherers. We eat both plants and animals for nurishment. Nature supplied us with canine teeth so that we could rip and tear meat from the bone as well as teeth for grinding down plants.

Eating animals for humans is as natural to us, as eating the gazelle is to the lions...but I don't see PETA telling the Lions what they can and can't eat. With this method of thinking PETA over looks the fact that we are animals as well, and as such we have our place on the food chain.

2. Animals are not ours to wear.

This goes along with point 1, to an extent. In the older days, man didn't just eat the animal, he used every part of the animal, the hide, the bone....everything. Without using Fur the caveman would of gone extinct, having not survived the winter. So I wonder what he would tihnk of PETA's idea that animals are not meant for clothing? We may have access to synthetics in today's society, but at the same time Fur and the fur trade is a tradition and part of our history. And most importantly, it's natural. As human kind would have had a hard time survivng without the use of animal hides. Persoanlly, I would rather buy 1 good leather jacket and have it for years, then to have to buy a new "fake" leather jacket every year. It's more economic. Not to mention that leather still makes one of the most protective forms of clothing that we have. Which is important to blue collar workers, whose boots they depend on for protection from heat and external sources and motorcycle riders who look to their leather for protection.
Which says nothing of the down used to make parkas, for those who live in the colder areas...as well as various furs...all of which provide superior protection from the elements than a synthetic material. And in some of the northern areas, these furs are part of a centuries long tradition, part of both tribal culture and way of living.

And PETA would have you believe that these animals are slaughtered for their coats and then wasted, but the meat is often sold to different companies for different purposes. (Some for human consumption, some for animal consumption and some for various other products.) So the animal is not going to waste. Just as our ancestors didn't waste their kills.

3. Animals are not outs to experiment on.

First of all, let me share with you some facts that PETA doesn't bother pointing out in their campaigns. In the last 25 years, animal testing has been virtually cut in half. Animal testing also creates data that is irreplacable and alternatives methods are not always sufficient in obtainting the date needed.

The tests themselves are evaluated by the USDA, with certain criteria which limit the amount of distress and pain the animal can be subjected to. (Of course, there will always be abuse of the rules, as there is in everything. But PETA would have you believe it occurs in every lab in the world.) Also the USDA, approves the number and type of animals to be used, and prevents the experiments in the cases where sufficientdata is already available. For all surgeries and painful tests sedatives must used, and the maximum restraining time is three minutes. If the animal is permenantly damaged during the test, it must be euthanized before anesthesia wears off.

Some of the things that animal testing has made possible are cardiac surgeries, transplants, joint replacements, high production rates for insulin and ALL vaccines. And that's just barely scratching the surface. Animal experimentation, creates a better quality of life for both man and animals, because testing not only creates usable medicine for us...but animals as well. And it is still absolutely neccesary.

4. Animals are not ours for entertainment.

That's right, no more animals on TV, no more circus, no more dog shows, and no more pets. PETA is against dog breeding, and while they acknowledge it is unrealistic for people to just turn their dogs loose in the street, they full expect you to follow THEIR guidelines for having a pet.

PETA believes that animals rights are comparable to those afforded by people. Which I admit sounds great on the surface...but considering what we lose in the long run, it isn't totally worth it. Over the next five days I will examine PETA's actual practices, and the hypocrisy in their teachings when eveluated next to PETA's actions. I promise you, PETA is only telling you half the story. I'd like to fill in the blanks. If you have any questions, ask away and while I'm researching over the next few nights, I will check for an answer and get back to you.

It's actually a large part of PETA's belief and mission statement. They want breeding banned outright, and belief that sterilization is absolutely neccesary. Thus phasincg pets out completely. Of course, they can't expect pet lovers to join their causes by preaching that point endlessly, opting instead to take a stance of "if you are going to have a pet", and then offerring their belieffs in what measures you should take to have a pet. Including, but not limited to, having your pet sterilized and having a structure built to cool the animals off in the summer time and heat them in the winter, by either allowing them in your home oir building an out door structure with AC for your pets. You can actually go to PETA's web site to find more beliefs and practices encouraged by the orgnization. These are the beliefs of the Organization itself, not neccesarily one or two members. PETA's beliefs are largely based on hypocrisy. They also claim not to condone terrorists acts by belief, but fully support it in practice. I've actually been doing research into the hypocrisy of their practice...my research is going great, but I've uncovered more than I had planned to find. And I want to make sure my research is thorough before I post it.






Yes and no. No I won't give up eating meat. I like the way flesh taste, and believe that it is our instinct to enjoy meat. Their is only two points to argue against the eating of meat. 1 is from a health standpoint, which I hear Vegans toss around constantly. This is nonsense, one can have a well rounded meal that contains meat as a maincourse and remian healthy. I'm willing to bet that, as a meat eater, I'm actually in better shape then most of those who choose a meat free lifestyle.

The second arguement is one of morality, which is the point that organizations like PETA take up. That "animals are not ours to eat." Well I hate to inform Ms. Ingrid Newkirk, but nature disagrees. Nature equipped humanity with set of teeth specifically for stripping meat from bone. The same nature that gave us teeth for chewing vegetables. It's no less natural for me to eat a cow as it is for the lion to eat a Gazelle. Would PETA dare go off into the Savannah and tell the lion that he is wrong? No, in fact, when the Lion is pulled away from the gazelle and fed something else, PETA calls it cruel. That's hypocrisy.

As far as meat farms, there is a lot of misinformation being thrown around. For example, the practices you see on the PETA videos are the most extreme examples of animal treatment on meat farms. They are not the STANDARD they are the EXCEPTION. In the last 5 years, the US has increased punishments and regulations of these famrs and have seen a substantial drop in animal abuse. Of course, you'll never hear PETA say that...even though they could work it into their "propaghanda" and claim responsibility.

The truth is, we shouldn't support these organizations for spreading misinformation. We should send a clear message to these organizations that it is THEIR responsibility to tell the truth on these issues. The truth is that PETA spends more on self promotion campaigns then they spend on saving animals. The truth is, they produce information and distribute this information at shopping malls, schools and other social functions that is untrue. And when not a blatant lie, is an exageration of the truth.

My research is just about done on PETA, ad very shortly I will posting my findings, complete with Tax form information that shows where their money goes, the USDA's findings on meat farms and practices as compared to PETA's claims, as well as the many ways this orgnization is practicing hypocrisy in it's beleifs and actions.

Truth is, when we support an organization we should take enough responsibility to know where our moeny and efforts are going. If you are a supporter of programs like PETA, ELF or ALF then you are supporting a hypocritical cause that builds a fan base of terrorism and propaghanda.

I oppose Animal Cruelty, but Ingrid Newkirk is just as bad as those who take part in actions of animal cruelty....and soon I'll show you exactly how.

Well then I suggest you go back and read the original post. We ARE NOT talking about the movement in general. We are talking about "individual organizations and their practices...the organization up for discussion at the moment IS "PETA".

But if you want to discuss Animal Rights in general, then by all means lets. This is a forum geared towards education, afterall. What rights would you like to give animals? Animal RIGHTS movements are for giving animals rights that parrellel our own in a lot of ways. Like barring them from being used in medical research....barring them from being used in ANY entertainment capacity....basically doing anything to the animal that the animal doesn't consent to.

Now, ANIMAL CRUELTY is what a lot of people think of when "animal rights" are mentioned. Which calls for stricter guidelines for medical research, stricter guidelines for the way animals are handled in food "mills", They call for regulations on breeders, they call for regulation of animals used in the entertainment industry.

Animal cruelty supporters are like the left wing of the animal welfare debate, whereas animal rights supporters are the right wing. But the first step in making the right choice in whom you support is knowing what ause you are rallying behind, and what organizations are reputtable and respectable, and most of all...spending your monmey well.

THAT is what this thread is about, not the movements in general, but WHO you can trust in these movements.



And if we were discussing philosphy, then we could debate Moore's ideas on using nature to define natural acts as "Good". But this is not a philosophy group. We are talking about NATURE, and anything that pretains to what is NATURAL is absolutely applicable. It is natural and instinctive for man to eat meat. We are Omnivores, and that fact alone is TOTALLY applicable to the subject at hand.

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I take it you've watched the show Bullshit? A lot of this information was aired on their episode about PETA. If you haven't seen it, I suggest you watch it. It's amazing how Penn and Teller just completely destroy the propaganda and charm that PETA has work so hard to construct. I remember they had a bit on how PETA does not believe in the euthenization of animals, nor in their capture, but the main headquarters had recently had a huge freezer installed to serve as a morgue for animals that they had euthenized. They said the animals that were in that morgue were suffering severely and the only "humane" thing to do was to euthenize them. rolleyes Let's not forget when they threatened the life of Ted Nugent's children. Such wonderful people they are. mrgreen

Yeah... it is good to know what real "causes" your donated money is going to. xp