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 Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:09 am
1. It is not a sin, and I have proof ( proof) 2. Homosexuality is not a choice. You are born gay, you do not choose to be gay. ( proof and more proof) 3. Sins are choices. One cannot be born with a perpetual sin under the fact that God is Just. If homosexuality is not a choice, then God would not let them be born instantly condemned to never being able to stop sinning. The only sin one is born with is the sin of being human: Original sin. And that is washed away in Christ. 4. Is gay marriage a sin? I doubt it. Gay marriage is an expression oftwo gay people's love for each other, and love is definatly not a sin. Why would God have issues with two people marrying out of love?
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:01 pm
Also, I believe this is relevant to the discussion:
I did NOT write this.
(author unknown)
I am the girl kicked out of her home because I confided in my mother that I am a lesbian.
I am the prostitute working the streets because nobody will hire a transsexual woman.
I am the sister who holds her gay brother tight through the painful, tear-filled nights.
We are the parents who buried our daughter long before her time.
I am the man who died alone in the hospital because they would not let my partner of twenty-seven years into the room.
I am the foster child who wakes up with nightmares of being taken away from the two fathers who are the only loving family I have ever had. I wish they could adopt me.
I am one of the lucky ones, I guess. I survived the attack that left me in a coma for three weeks, and in another year I will probably be able to walk again.
I am not one of the lucky ones. I killed myself just weeks before graduating high school. It was simply too much to bear.
We are the couple who had the realtor hang up on us when she found out we wanted to rent a one-bedroom for two men.
I am the person who never knows which bathroom I should use if I want to avoid getting the management called on me.
I am the mother who is not allowed to even visit the children I bore, nursed, and raised. The court says I am an unfit mother because I now live with another woman.
I am the domestic-violence survivor who found the support system grow suddenly cold and distant when they found out my abusive partner is also a woman.
I am the domestic-violence survivor who has no support system to turn to because I am male.
I am the father who has never hugged his son because I grew up afraid to show affection to other men.
I am the home-economics teacher who always wanted to teach gym until someone told me that only lesbians do that.
I am the man who died when the paramedics stopped treating me as soon as they realized I was transsexual.
I am the person who feels guilty because I think I could be a much better person if I did not have to always deal with society hating me.
I am the man who stopped attending church, not because I don't believe, but because they closed their doors to my kind.
I am the person who has to hide what this world needs most, love.
I am the person who is afraid of telling his loving Christian parents he loves another male.
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:03 pm
I would to ask a few questions with regard to this thread:
Have you read the archived discussions regarding Homosexuality, a list of which is kept in the Thread Directory?
Have you considered that not every member of this guild has an opinion against homosexuality in Christianity, nor will we be against you from the moment you post here, therefore a confrontational introduction is not necessary?
Have you selected which parts (quotations) of your proofs apply to your arguments? You must also state how your proofs prove your claims.
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:47 am
Priestley I would to ask a few questions with regard to this thread:
Have you read the archived discussions regarding Homosexuality, a list of which is kept in the Thread Directory?
Have you considered that not every member of this guild has an opinion against homosexuality in Christianity, nor will we be against you from the moment you post here, therefore a confrontational introduction is not necessary?
Have you selected which parts (quotations) of your proofs apply to your arguments? You must also state how your proofs prove your claims. The threads were locked. As for the confrontation, I had been arguing about it earlier in the day, so I was angry and ready to throw out an argument. The thing about gay being not a choice proves that God makes gay people, which brings the question of why have people born as sinners automatically. The first part points out that it is not nessesarily a sin. Post 2 was a shot at your emotions to boost my argument.
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:20 pm
The Amazing Jabels Priestley I would to ask a few questions with regard to this thread:
Have you read the archived discussions regarding Homosexuality, a list of which is kept in the Thread Directory?
Have you considered that not every member of this guild has an opinion against homosexuality in Christianity, nor will we be against you from the moment you post here, therefore a confrontational introduction is not necessary?
Have you selected which parts (quotations) of your proofs apply to your arguments? You must also state how your proofs prove your claims. The threads were locked. The Amazing Jabels As for the confrontation, I had been arguing about it earlier in the day, so I was angry and ready to throw out an argument. The Amazing Jabels The thing about gay being not a choice proves that God makes gay people, which brings the question of why have people born as sinners automatically.
The Amazing Jabels The first part points out that it is not nessesarily a sin. The Amazing Jabels Post 2 was a shot at your emotions to boost my argument.
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:31 am
I have nothing against Homosexuals.
I have a problem with the fact that people assume that I am against homosexuals.
You know, if we hated people living in sin, and didn't accept people living in sin inside our church, we might as well lock the doors and tear down the building, because we ALL live in sin. We sin every day.
Also, I do believe homosexuality is a sin. Every time in the bible about homosexuality something bad is happening. Everytime marriage is mentioned, it is between a guy and a girl. Adams perfect mate, a women. There are tons of hints in the bible.
Every marriage in the bible is MalexFemale.
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:20 am
1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is a child of God and knows God. 1 Peter 4:8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. And that's all I have to say on the matter. God would not create creatures who could love with such passion and then tell them not to, when the entire NT is about love being the best thing you can do. But yes, try not to start off a new thread so angry and defensive. Even if we disagree with you, it's kept very civil. Please try to do the same for us and give us the benefit of the doubt. mrgreen
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:50 pm
Dude! I want that first verse as a tattoo! :O -ponders where she could put it-
I think the general consensus that has been reached in this guild is that homosexuality is not a choice, that one is born with it, but that, to some degree, we are all born with some vice, some sin that we must struggle with. So to say that "God wouldn't let people be born with sin" is a moot point in this argument, because, as human beings, we are all born with sin.
However, we are called to do whatever we do, eating, drinking, whatever, for God's glory. It's not about us, it's not about how we can get into Heaven or stay out of trouble, it's about what will bring honest and good recognition and praise to God. If you want to be in a homosexual relationship that honors God (you remain abstinent until marriage, or the closest thing to it; you have considered your choice to be in a relationship prayerfully; you do not feel convicted by the Spirit about it), then no one can say if it's right or wrong. If you honestly feel in your heart of hearts that God approves of and blesses your relationship, then by all means, stay in it, so long as the two of you are in a Christ-centered relationship.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:21 pm
Ok. Well. I am going to say this out, and please do not attack me.
First off, my very best friend in the world is gay. I love him alot.
That being said, I do believe homosexuality is a sin, and I do not think God makes people gay.
We all have struggles, and I do not believe in condemning people for them, it is not my place.
I guess the main thing is, is that homosexuality tends to be a sin out in the open. Most of us hide our sin, but if it were out in the open, people would probably be just as attack-prone, if that is the correct word choice.
I view any sin struggle as the same, love the sinner, not the sin. I may not agree with it, but I will love you the same. As God will.
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:58 pm
Knatalie9 That being said, I do believe homosexuality is a sin, and I do not think God makes people gay. What makes you believe such?
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Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:48 pm
zz1000zz Knatalie9 That being said, I do believe homosexuality is a sin, and I do not think God makes people gay. What makes you believe such? I'm going to say that I agree with Knatalie9 on this issue. In reference to zz1000zz's question, I resorted to investigating this topic on a biblically-based website called Got Questions.org. So here are some things I found: Quote: Question: "What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?" Answer: The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When a person continues in sin and disbelief, the Bible tells us that God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God. God does not create a person with homosexual desires. The Bible tells us that a person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of their own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person choosing to sin by giving into their sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger / rage, does that make it right for then to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true for homosexuality. However, the Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17). Recommended Resource: Coming out of Homosexuality by Bob Davies and 101 Frequently Asked Questions About Homosexuality by Mike Haley. And another: Quote: Question: "Is it possible to be a gay Christian?" Answer: “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). There is a tendency to declare homosexuality as the worst of all sins. While it is undeniable, biblically speaking, that homosexuality is immoral and unnatural (Romans 1:26-27), in no sense does the Bible describe homosexuality as an unforgivable sin. Nor does the Bible teach that homosexuality is a sin Christians will never struggle against. Perhaps that is the key phrase in the question of whether it is possible to be a gay Christian: “struggle against.” It is possible for a Christian to struggle with homosexual temptations. Many homosexuals who become Christians have ongoing struggles with homosexual feelings and desires. Some strongly heterosexual men and women have experienced a “spark” of homosexual interest at some point in their lives. Whether or not these desires and temptations exist does not determine whether a person is a Christian. The Bible is clear that no Christian is sinless (1 John 1:8,10). While the specific sin / temptation varies from one Christian to another, all Christians have struggles with sin, and all Christians sometimes fail in those struggles (1 Corinthians 10:13). What differentiates a Christian’s life from a non-Christian’s life is the struggle against sin. The Christian life is a progressive journey of overcoming the “acts of the flesh” (Galatians 5:19-21), and allowing God’s Spirit to produce the “fruit of the Spirit” (Galatians 5:22-23). Yes, Christians sin, sometimes horribly. Sadly, sometimes Christians are indistinguishable from non-Christians. However, a true Christian will always repent, will always eventually return to God, and will always resume the struggle against sin. But the Bible gives no support for the idea that a person who perpetually and unrepentantly engages in sin can indeed be a Christian. Notice 1 Corinthians 6:11, "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." First Corinthians 6:9-10 lists sins that, if indulged in continuously, identify a person as not being redeemed—not being a Christian. Often, homosexuality is singled out from this list. If a person struggles with homosexual temptations, that person is presumed to be unsaved. If a person actually engages in homosexual acts, that person is definitely thought to be unsaved. However, the same assumptions are not made, at least not with the same emphasis, regarding other sins in the list: fornication (pre-marital sex), idolatry, adultery, thievery, covetousness, alcoholism, slander, and deceit. It is inconsistent, for example, to declare those guilty of pre-marital sex as “disobedient Christians,” while declaring homosexuals as definitively non-Christians. Is it possible to be a gay Christian? If the phrase “gay Christian” refers to a person who struggles against homosexual desires and temptations – yes, a “gay Christian” is possible. However, the description “gay Christian” is not accurate for such a person, since he/she does not desire to be gay, and is struggling against the temptations. Such a person is not a “gay Christian,” but rather is simply a struggling Christian, just as there are Christians who struggle with fornication, lying, and stealing. If the phrase “gay Christian” refers to a person who actively, perpetually, and unrepentantly lives a homosexual lifestyle – no, it is not possible for such a person to truly be a Christian. Recommended Resource: Coming out of Homosexuality by Bob Davies and 101 Frequently Asked Questions About Homosexuality by Mike Haley. Writing this post is in no way, shape or form, meant to inflict anger or hatred against anyone. I am only speaking the truth in love and in deep concern for my fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord. smile
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:49 am
There's a lady in my church who's gay, but not practicing as she believes it to be sinful.
I remember asking when I was younger why God made people gay if they couldn't follow their urges, and my grandmother told me that God set some people apart so they could dedicate their whole lives to him without being distracted by a spouse.
I thank often God that he hasn't called me to follow that path. Now I tend to go against the opinions of a lot of people in my church, which I think is too conservative. I don't really think that homosexuality is a sin, and even if it was, God sees all sin as equal, and we have no right to judge/condemn.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:25 pm
Now, Kitty, I have to disagree with most of what that site says about homosexuality. Tons of research on the topic can't just be thrown away- Satan doesn't just come in and mess with cell clusters in people's brains or the sizes of their brains to make them "seem" gay. Interestingly enough, if one looks at the pattern of things God calls sinful, one will see that most of them (actually, all of them), are in some way hurtful to other people, which goes totally contrary to what Jesus tells us to do: love. Being gay doesn't hurt anyway. confused It's also not a choice. Prenatal influences and heredity are definitely culprits in this situation.
And ... yeah, that's all I have to offer on the situation, because I'm really sleepy and kind of emotionally drained tonight. No offense was intended, so yes. That is all.
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Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:05 am
MissMeowMeowKitty zz1000zz Knatalie9 That being said, I do believe homosexuality is a sin, and I do not think God makes people gay. What makes you believe such? I'm going to say that I agree with Knatalie9 on this issue. In reference to zz1000zz's question, I resorted to investigating this topic on a biblically-based website called Got Questions.org. So here are some things I found: This is the same nonsense as always. Quote: Question: "What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?" Answer: The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When a person continues in sin and disbelief, the Bible tells us that God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God. I will simply repeat what I have said on this subject before. zz1000zz No. Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because of homosexuality, despite what people like to say. They were destroyed because the inhabitants wanted to *rape* the angels. It was the nature of the hospitality of the cities that caused their destruction. There is no basis for claiming Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality. Leviticus 18 and 20 do not say homosexuality is a sin. The word "abomination" (translated from toevah/to'ebah) does not, as implied by the English translation, refer to anything inherently evil, but rather ritually unclean. A more accurate translation would simply be "taboo." These codes of cleanliness are no longer relevant. Beyond this, the homosexuality referenced in Leviticus is that of temple prostitution, a common practice amongst the pagans around the Jews at the time. In the New Testament, there is only one actual mention of homosexual acts (Romans 1). The supposed references to homosexuality in 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 are not real. The words used in those passages that are translated to homosexuality are, Pornia, Arsenokoitas and Malakoi. None of these can actually be translated into homosexuality. Ultimately, the only reference to homosexuality in the New Testament is found in Romans 1. Even here there is no condemnation of homosexuality. Romans 1: 18-32 speaks of Gentiles who forsook God, resulting in shameful and degrading acts such as lustful living. Everyone should be able to agree lustful living is sinful. Whether it is homosexual or heterosexual is irrelevant to this. Even if one interprets the usage of "unnatural" in the strictest (and quite possibly least accurate) way, there is nothing in this passage stating homosexuality is a sin. MissMeowMeowKitty Writing this post is in no way, shape or form, meant to inflict anger or hatred against anyone. I am only speaking the truth in love and in deep concern for my fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord. smile I will never understand how people can claim to be "only speaking the truth" while being so completely wrong. It is a sad state of affairs when such a significant aspect of Christianity is so completely misunderstood on such a large scale.
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Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:45 am
zz1000zz MissMeowMeowKitty zz1000zz Knatalie9 That being said, I do believe homosexuality is a sin, and I do not think God makes people gay. What makes you believe such? I'm going to say that I agree with Knatalie9 on this issue. In reference to zz1000zz's question, I resorted to investigating this topic on a biblically-based website called Got Questions.org. So here are some things I found: This is the same nonsense as always. Quote: Question: "What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?" Answer: The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When a person continues in sin and disbelief, the Bible tells us that God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God. I will simply repeat what I have said on this subject before. zz1000zz No. Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because of homosexuality, despite what people like to say. They were destroyed because the inhabitants wanted to *rape* the angels. It was the nature of the hospitality of the cities that caused their destruction. There is no basis for claiming Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of homosexuality. Leviticus 18 and 20 do not say homosexuality is a sin. The word "abomination" (translated from toevah/to'ebah) does not, as implied by the English translation, refer to anything inherently evil, but rather ritually unclean. A more accurate translation would simply be "taboo." These codes of cleanliness are no longer relevant. Beyond this, the homosexuality referenced in Leviticus is that of temple prostitution, a common practice amongst the pagans around the Jews at the time. In the New Testament, there is only one actual mention of homosexual acts (Romans 1). The supposed references to homosexuality in 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 are not real. The words used in those passages that are translated to homosexuality are, Pornia, Arsenokoitas and Malakoi. None of these can actually be translated into homosexuality. Ultimately, the only reference to homosexuality in the New Testament is found in Romans 1. Even here there is no condemnation of homosexuality. Romans 1: 18-32 speaks of Gentiles who forsook God, resulting in shameful and degrading acts such as lustful living. Everyone should be able to agree lustful living is sinful. Whether it is homosexual or heterosexual is irrelevant to this. Even if one interprets the usage of "unnatural" in the strictest (and quite possibly least accurate) way, there is nothing in this passage stating homosexuality is a sin. MissMeowMeowKitty Writing this post is in no way, shape or form, meant to inflict anger or hatred against anyone. I am only speaking the truth in love and in deep concern for my fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord. smile I will never understand how people can claim to be "only speaking the truth" while being so completely wrong. It is a sad state of affairs when such a significant aspect of Christianity is so completely misunderstood on such a large scale. Whoa, sweet.
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