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dancing-in-the-streets

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:06 pm


Okay, so my husband and I have been studying the Bible (yeah, Christians...) and come to the conclusion that most Christian religions pretty much slaughter the Old Testament with "God is Love" concepts that just aren't there. I'm really interested in a more academic study of religion and Christian teachings (from what I've found) just don't quite do it for me. The translations are all funny and make the books say things they didn't really say, which bothers me.
So, we looked up synagogues near us and haven't gone because
a) we have no idea what proper attire/behavior is
b) I don't know which one to go to.

Like, we discovered a small congregation *I know that isn't the word...I don't know the right one* just around the corner from our new house with a female rabbi. I reallyreally thought that wasn't allowed at all. Turns out there are a pretty good number of Jewish sects (I had always thought there was Orthodox, lessOrthodox and Messianic but I was seriously simplifying, I guess)

What are the different groups? What do they mean when they say "reform Judaism" ? Is there a non-reform group that is less good in some way? What are some of these 'reforms' ? Am I wrong to assume that the best way to learn about Jewish beliefs is to go to services, and how ought I to dress and act? None of the websites say the times that things start and, honestly, if I go, I don't know what to expect at all.

Help? Information sources? Smackdowns for a lack of knowledge?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:04 am


I'll try to answer these questions in separate posts, by theme, according to what seems to go together.

First, Sects/Denominations, or as they're known in Judaism, Movements. In the beginning, as the phrase goes, there were no movements. There were only Jews. Some Jews were observant and some weren't, but all Jews that came together to pray, came to the same locations -- the holy Temple at Jerusalem, and various synagogues in other locations throughout the Jewish communities of the world. This worked for generation upon generation because Jews were too often attacked by outside threats. The more threatened a population is, and the less accepted they are by other groups, the more closely they tend to stick together. So if any Jew wanted to pray with a community, he or she simply found the other Jews and got together with them. If a Jew had no family or was traveling away from his family, he could always count upon fellow Jews to offer him a place to stay, a table at which to eat a Sabbath or holy day meal, and a group with whom to pray so that he didn't have to pray lonely.

Reform
Then came the Enlightenment, or so they called it, in France. The French were prepared to accept Jews as citizens, provided that they pledge to obey French laws as a group. This caught on in other countries as well. So eager were (some/many) Jews for acceptance that they also decided to make their distinctive dress and worship styles conform to the styles of the majority population as well. They stopped wearing kippot (singular: kippah, the skullcap, also known as yarmulkeh in Yiddish) except when entering a synagogue to pray, and sometimes they didn't put it on then, either. They stopped wearing the four-cornered garments as everyday-wear, or at least they tucked the fringes away inside their trousers so that they couldn't be seen, and they stopped wearing prayer shawls for morning prayers. They decided to hold worship services in the language of the majority population instead of in Hebrew.

Gradually, women in these groups stopped covering their hair except when married; then they only covered in synagogue or in the home for Sabbath prayers; and then many stopped covering at all. Rather than having the speaker's/reader's lectern in the middle of the congregation, facing east towards Jerusalem, they moved the lectern up to the front of the congregation just like in Christian churches. They brought in organs, pianos, and other musical instruments to play, even on Sabbath, when musical instruments are forbidden to be carried, tuned, repaired if broken, or played. Other changes happened, other reforms. This became the Reform Movement, and it was born in Germany, where much anti-Semitism produced a lot of pressure to conform, to look like "real" Germans. In other countries it is known as Liberal Judaism, Progressive Judaism, or in Israel as Hiloni (non-religious) Judaism.

The movement is defined loosely -- by their own published platform, this is not my personal interpretation -- as those Jews who, because they believe that the Hebrew Bible was perhaps divinely inspired but in fact written by men and therefore fallible albeit "the best we've currently got, so we might as well keep it," did not necessarily feel themselves bound to the 613 commandments found within the Hebrew Bible. Led by them, yes; inspired by them; guided by them; but not bound by them. Not obligated to follow them in the ways that Jews had, until the Reform movement came along, always followed them. The stated opinion of the Reform Movement is, to put it the way they do on their websites and from their pulpits, "Halachah (Jewish law) gets a vote, not a veto" in the way they choose to live.

Orthodox
he Orthodox Movement was not so much born as defined. That is, this was always the way Jews lived, until Reform Judaism came to be. Once some Jews called themselves Reform Jews, the Jews that were still observant of the Biblical laws needed something to call themselves to differentiate from those who didn't observe the Biblical laws. They chose the word Orthodox, which is taken from the Greek meaning "right-thinking." In practical terms, though, it's not so much a definition of thought as of action. Practically speaking, Orthodox is defined as "Jews who obey the Biblical laws because they were given by Hashem." (Hashem: Ha Shem, The Name, that is, God, whose actual name we don't utter except in prayer, or when teaching someone such as a child or a convert how to pray.) It is sometimes referred to, in other countries, as Traditional Judaism, but in the US and much of Canada, Traditional Judaism is the name of a sub-set of Conservative Judaism.

Conservative
This movement was born in America. In other places it is called the Masorti (Traditional) Movement. It is actually an outgrowth of Reform Judaism rather than of Orthodox Judaism. That is, instead of being a group of Orthodox Jews who wanted to be a bit more liberal and therefore broke off from the Orthodox, it was actually a group of Reform Jews who felt they wanted to be a little more traditional, but not go all the way back to Orthodoxy. In the Conservative viewpoint, they feel they are following all of the Biblical laws, but that the laws must be reinterpreted in light of modern discoveries. For instance, while an Orthodox Jew will not turn an electric light on or off on Shabbat (Sabbath) because it is akin to lighting a fire, a Conservative Jew will turn a light on or off because it is not specifically a fire, which is forbidden to be lit or extinguished on Shabbat. Halachah gets a vote, sometimes a veto, but the Conservative Movement does pride itself on being very modern. In the US and parts of Canada, the Traditional Movement broke off from the Conservative Movement when the Conservative Movement decided to ordain women as rabbis and cantors. That's the only difference between Traditional and Conservative Judaism, however.

Messianic
The term "Messianic Judaism" is a misnomer. This is not a branch of Judaism, but a branch of Christianity. It's Christianity with Hebrew words, downplaying certain things that are objectionable to Jews, giving Hebrew names for Christian practices (calling it "brit mikvah," a covenant of immersion, rather than baptism, for instance), calling Jesus "Yeshua," his Hebrew name, in order to make it all more palatable to Jews, because the primary goal of the Hebrew-Christian organizations is to bring Jews to believe in and worship Jesus. See this link for more information.

There are other subsets: Modern Orthodox, Chassidic Orthodox, Jewish Humanism (atheist), Jewish Renewal (a break-off of Modern Orthodoxy), Reconstructionist, and so on. I don't know enough about those movements to give them a proper description. And, of course, I may be mistaken in the finer details of what I've presented above. I'm not a scholar or a rabbi, just someone who reads too much.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:39 am


dancing-in-the-streets
Okay, so my husband and I have been studying the Bible (yeah, Christians...) and come to the conclusion that most Christian religions pretty much slaughter the Old Testament with "God is Love" concepts that just aren't there.


Actually, in Exodus and again in Deuteronomy, the Torah (that is, the Teaching -- the Five Books of Moses) states that God visits iniquity on the third and fourth generations that continue their parents' sinful patterns, but gives compassion to the thousandth generation of those that keep God's laws. The "God is Love" concept is there, right from the beginning.

dancing-in-the-streets
I'm really interested in a more academic study of religion and Christian teachings (from what I've found) just don't quite do it for me. The translations are all funny and make the books say things they didn't really say, which bothers me.


That's true. Reading the Bible in translation is like kissing the bride through the veil.

dancing-in-the-streets

So, we looked up synagogues near us and haven't gone because
a) we have no idea what proper attire/behavior is
b) I don't know which one to go to. Like, we discovered a small congregation *I know that isn't the word...I don't know the right one* just around the corner from our new house...


Congregation is a fine word for it. Since your home is right around the corner, go out sometime on a Saturday morning, any time between 8:30 and 10:00, and just take a look at what people are wearing on their way to the synagogue. If it's a very casual congregation, some folks might be wearing jeans and polo shirts -- but they'll be the person's best jeans and newest, cleanest polo shirt, out of respect for the congregation and for the Torah. If it's a very formal congregation, you'll probably see both men and women in good business suits, or better. One thing that'll always be appropriate is modesty, of course. Make sure that you and your husband are both covered from just below the elbow, to the collarbone, and down to just below the knee -- as a bare minimum, that is. Longer skirts or trousers are always fine. Men generally cover their legs anyway. Your husband should wear a hat, or take a kippah from the basket at the front door, because in Judaism a covered head is a sign of respect. Women in a Reform congregation can do the same; anywhere else, only a married woman is required to cover her head with a hat, cap, snood, scarf, or wig.

Proper behavior is what you'd probably imagine as proper behavior in a church. Sit down and cover your eyes when saying the Shema ("Hear, O Israel...." which people usually sing); stand when they stand. There's no talking during the Amidah (also called the Standing Prayer, Tefillah, the Avot, or The Prayer, which is what Tefillah means). Also, Jewish congregations are used to having visitors. The best thing to do is sit in the back row and just observe; you're not required to do anything, except keep your voice at a level so that others can't hear you and be disturbed. If you're going to a Reform synagogue, there's mixed seating; other places, ask where the men's section is and where the women's section is.

dancing-in-the-streets
...with a female rabbi.


It's against the common understanding of the rules within Orthodox Judaism and Traditional Judaism, but the Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, and Jewish Renewal movements do permit ordination of women as rabbis and cantors. The truth is, there is nothing in the Torah that prevents it, but there are very few rabbis who will teach a female student. Sometimes, as in any group you'll ever encounter, it's because of sexism. Other times, and I like to believe it's most of the time, it's simply a question of modesty. A teacher and student work very closely together, sit very closely together, and are often alone together. To protect them both, and both their reputations, a man and a woman aren't permitted to be alone together unless they are near relations (parent, child, sibling, or spouse), so it's very hard to find a teacher who is able to teach a woman. Very rarely, the problem is solved by the rabbi teaching his wife or daughter alongside an unrelated student, as a sort of chaperone.

dancing-in-the-streets
What are the different groups? What do they mean when they say "reform Judaism" ? Is there a non-reform group that is less good in some way? What are some of these 'reforms' ? Am I wrong to assume that the best way to learn about Jewish beliefs is to go to services, and how ought I to dress and act? None of the websites say the times that things start and, honestly, if I go, I don't know what to expect at all.


dancing-in-the-streets
Help? Information sources? Smackdowns for a lack of knowledge?


Oh, please, no one should ever be blamed for not having knowledge. One should only be blamed for possessing knowledge and then doing nothing with it. Most of us here are beginners, in fact, so you're among good company. smile I'm Orthodox now, but was given exactly zero Jewish education as a child, so I'd be the last one to deliver a smackdown just for a lack of knowledge, even if you were a Jew. A Jew who lacks knowledge simply wasn't given adequate opportunities; how, then, should a non-Jew be expected to know more? It's possible, of course, for a non-Jew to become educated in Judaism, but certainly not required, so anyone who desires to learn is welcomed.

I think your best bet is to find an Orthodox congregation near you, if there is one, and ask about taking an Introduction to Judaism class. I had to take one too, several years back. In my class there were four conversion candidates, three of whom were only considering conversion because they wanted to marry Jews; a tiny handful of Jews who wanted to get more out of Judaism after a Judaism-deficient childhood; and the rest of the class were Christians wanting to know more about Judaism. You'll be in good company if you take such a class. Usually the classes are free or at very low cost, though you'll have to buy the books yourself.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:24 am


Jewish movements (denominations, sects) continued from above:

All of what I said applies only to the Ashkenazi Jewish community -- those who trace their ancestry back to Jewish communities in Germany, Poland, Russia, Galicia, Lithuania, Hungary, Austria, Scandinavia, the British Isles, some parts of France which adjoin Germany, and other (you should pardon the overgeneralization) "White Guy" countries. In these areas, the various movements each have their own synagogues, teach in their own rabbinic schools and also children's day schools, write their own prayer books, and engage in much passionate debate over how (and sometimes whether) to observe each of the 613 laws given to the children of Israel. There are Ashkenazim here in the Jewish Gaians Guild; I'm sure they'll happily raise their hands and be justifiably proud of their identity, so I won't need to name them.

The Sephardi Jewish community -- that is, Jews whose ancestry is from the Iberian peninsula, the Mediterranean, some parts of France, Africa, the Middle East, Asia, and (primarily because of Spanish and Portuguese settlement) Central/South America and the Netherlands -- was never split in this way. Within the Sephardi community, there are Jews who are fully observant and Jews who are less observant and Jews who are fully unobservant, but they all attend the same synagogues together, all pray together from the same prayer books, train in the same Jewish day schools, train rabbis in the same rabbinic schools or by individual study with a rabbi, and more or less keep to the same general ways and cultural mindset. I'm Sephardi, and I think there's one or maybe even two other Sephardim in this guild.

Interestingly, while the majority of the world's Jews are Sephardim, the majority of North American Jews are Ashkenazim.

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dancing-in-the-streets

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:45 pm


okay, so I figure I'll just keep my questions to this thread smile

1/ I read the thing on piercings and was wondering if tattoos are against rules?
2/ Somewhere in the guild it mentioned that you when you become Jewish you are no longer allowed to enter another place of worship, even for weddings/etc. Why? Is this an important rule? Is it less stringent in the reform groups? I'm really kinda confused about it in general.
And my college is a Jesuit school. Very good school, big on philosophy and law, and I'm pretty dedicated to it (going to be a lawyer biggrin ). Would that conflict? It is a pretty hardcore school, with a BIG old Catholic cathedral right in the middle of campus. Is that against the rules?
I'm really interested in all religions, not necessarily in the 'entertaining the idea of another G-d" way, but in the academic study sense. Would I have to give up on going to their services?
3/ I looked up the mikvah.org site but it doesn't have one listed within 300 miles of where I live. IF I were to pursue Judaism, would I have some obligation to move closer to one? Or is there most likely one nearer me that just isn't on the list?
4/ I had seen somewhere that married women have to cover their heads (with what, how much of my hair, etc?) What are some of the other requirements I would have to know about as a married woman? Is there some sort of difference if my husband does not become Jewish as well? 'cuz he's quite content following the 7, as he's said.
5/ On a random happy note: there is a Kosher food section at the store I walk to for groceries. It isn't much of a selection, but it is something. I just discovered it today.

Anyway, if the powers that be would rather I put my random questions elsewhere, let me know?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:16 am


dancing-in-the-streets
1/ I read the thing on piercings and was wondering if tattoos are against rules?


Leviticus 19:28 says: "You shall not make gashes in your flesh for the dead, or incise any marks on yourselves: I am HASHEM." Since tattooing is done with a needle or blade (depending on the technique), this would constitute a mark made in the flesh. Also prohibited: shaving the head or face as a sign of mourning (as do members of some other peoples and religious groups).

Quote:
2/ Somewhere in the guild it mentioned that you when you become Jewish you are no longer allowed to enter another place of worship, even for weddings/etc. Why? Is this an important rule? Is it less stringent in the reform groups? I'm really kinda confused about it in general.


Technically the prohibition is against entering a space dedicated specifically to another deity. Entering a non-sectarian chapel, for instance the chapels in airports or hotels (which don't display overt symbols of other religions, such as crosses) is permitted. But no, even (and especially) for weddings, baptisms, christenings, and such, a Jew isn't permitted to attend. A Jew who entered a building devoted to worship of any deity other than Hashem would be considered to be condoning idolatry. Since Allah is simply another name for Hashem, a Jew is permitted to enter a mosque, and vice versa: both Islam and Judaism are staunchly, fervently monotheistic, so there is no problem for either a Jew or a Muslim to enter the other's prayer space and even to pray there.

However, I have a friend who's a rabbi, who has another friend who's a pastor. His friend had a baby and invited Rabbi L to the baptism. Rabbi L solved the problem by standing immediately outside the open doorway to the church and listening attentively through the man's cellphone, which was next to him and set on speaker, so that he could hear the entire proceedings and be supportive, but would be seen specifically not entering the building. He was able to honor his friendship as well as his Judaism, and all were pleased with the solution.

Quote:
And my college is a Jesuit school. Very good school, big on philosophy and law, and I'm pretty dedicated to it (going to be a lawyer biggrin ). Would that conflict? It is a pretty hardcore school, with a BIG old Catholic cathedral right in the middle of campus. Is that against the rules?


No, unless you would be required to do something that does conflict with Jewish law. That would be: studying Christianity; attending church/chapel as a requirement of being a student; becoming Christian and/or renouncing Judaism; attending graduation ceremonies at which Christian prayers would be uttered (at most schools, attendance at the ceremony is not a condition of graduation, so you should be safe just by not attending the ceremony); or attending classes, lectures, or other scholastic events on Sabbath or Jewish holidays.

Quote:
I'm really interested in all religions, not necessarily in the 'entertaining the idea of another G-d" way, but in the academic study sense. Would I have to give up on going to their services?


Yes, with one exception. A Jew is permitted to attend a mosque, and even to pray there, albeit not to pray the Muslim prayers. He should instead respect Islam by not "putting it on" like it was a quaint costume to be put on and taken off at whim. Going through the motions without understanding their meaning and without being fully invested in them could be seen as mocking Islam for amusement value, and this is neither permitted nor polite.

Quote:
3/ I looked up the mikvah.org site but it doesn't have one listed within 300 miles of where I live. IF I were to pursue Judaism, would I have some obligation to move closer to one? Or is there most likely one nearer me that just isn't on the list?


If you were to convert to Judaism, you would need to immerse as the final step in your conversion. However, don't move just yet. Consult with your local rabbi. There may be a private ("unlisted") mikvah, available only for members of a congregation, within or near a synagogue, or even within someone's home. Alternatively, for your conversion, you and your rabbi and the other members of the beit din may be able to travel to the nearest mikvah just for the occasion of your immersion.

There may also be a lake or river nearby that qualifies as a mikvah, though it would be uncomfortable in winter -- many women throughout Jewish history have been known to chip ice in a frozen lake in order to immerse in the winter.

Once you marry, if you're a woman, you would be required to immerse once each month, seven 'clean' days after the end of your menstrual cycle, in order that you should again be permitted to your husband. (See the thread on mikvah, in the Jewish Information subforum.) For this, some women travel while others use rivers and lakes; if you don't want to do that, moving to a town with a mikvah would definitely be the thing to do.

Quote:
4/ I had seen somewhere that married women have to cover their heads (with what, how much of my hair, etc?) What are some of the other requirements I would have to know about as a married woman? Is there some sort of difference if my husband does not become Jewish as well? 'cuz he's quite content following the 7, as he's said.


Jewish men have a commandment called kisui rosh, "covering the head," once they reach the age of three years (look up "kippah" on Wikipedia), but women only have to do it once they're married. Each Jewish community treats this differently in terms of women's requirement. Some require only that there be SOME kind of head covering -- a cap or wide headband that covers only a little bit of the hair, a full wig or scarf or hat that covers all the hair, and anywher in between.

Some communities allow a woman to uncover again once they are widowed or divorced (in order that she can be seen to be available again for another marriage), while others consider her hair to be 'nakedness' once it's been covered once on account of marriage, and require it to be covered lifelong. Personally, I cover all of my hair when I'm outside the home, but I'll just grab a bandana and cover the top of it if I'm at home and someone comes over.

Other commandments that involve married women: niddah ("separation," not touching one's husband or handing each other things during one's menstruation and the seven 'clean' days after menstruation ceases); mikvah (immersing in a mikvah to put an end to the time of niddah); lighting Shabbat and holiday candles; taking challah (look that up, it's a bit complicated). These laws are not incumbent upon non-Jewish women.

Commandments that change if a Jewish woman marries a non-Jewish man: None. Because it's not permitted. If you seek halachic conversion (that is, conversion which is in keeping with Jewish law), the rabbi will either say yes if both of you are converting, or no if only one of you is converting. A Jewish marriage involves a Jewish marriage contract, called a ketubah (from katuv, "writing"). The language of the ketubah involves the phrase, "according to the laws of Moses and Israel." Since a non-Jew is not bound by those laws, he cannot make an oath under those laws. It would be like a Nigerian saying, "I swear by the laws of Italy..." or a German saying, "As a subject of the King of England, I vow..." It just doesn't make any sense.

This isn't to say that love can't exist between a Jew and a non-Jew. It is only to say that a Jew and a non-Jew cannot enter into a contract and be bound by a law that does not apply equally to them both. As the old saying goes, a bird may love a fish, but where would they live?

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dancing-in-the-streets

PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:55 pm


I genuinely hate getting quote pyramids going, so I'll just respond anew.

The tattoo thing made sense, I just wondered when I read the piercings thread.

I read the mikvah thread-thats where I started to wonder and looked it up. It is good to know that there is likely a closer one that is unlisted 'cuz I just bought a house here and was planning to stay a while. It sounds like a really excellent ritual-just the part where one puts all that effort into being perfectly clean physically, with a built in 'checking for bruises' thing must be really good on a personal and community level. I was really happy to read about it.

The idea of not being able to go to another religious Anything is really disturbing. I have spent lots of time studying other groups and would be really sad to have to stop with the practical, in person study. And, yeah-my school does requre religion classes. Some are basic 'history of christianity' classes, they have a Hebrew class, and a couple about Hindu, Buddhism, etc. I'm still just baffled by this though. You are allowed to study other faiths from books and such, but not in person? What about taking classes on them? Isn't it the same thing? And doesn't it logically follow that you must attend services to understand more completely? Isn't that encouraged? yargh. *insert me rambling further about my confusion* I just can't-can't sign up for anything that will limit me learning about the world I live in.

Also, I'm already married. My husband firmly believes that the Jewish faith is correct and something to be honored, but he'd rather not convert. So, it would only be me and...it sounds like that doesn't work. Also okay. I'm still just learning and knowing that it won't happen this early in the process is probably for the best.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:41 am


dancing-in-the-streets
The idea of not being able to go to another religious Anything is really disturbing. I have spent lots of time studying other groups and would be really sad to have to stop with the practical, in person study. And, yeah-my school does requre religion classes. Some are basic 'history of christianity' classes, they have a Hebrew class, and a couple about Hindu, Buddhism, etc. I'm still just baffled by this though. You are allowed to study other faiths from books and such, but not in person? What about taking classes on them? Isn't it the same thing? And doesn't it logically follow that you must attend services to understand more completely? Isn't that encouraged? yargh. *insert me rambling further about my confusion* I just can't-can't sign up for anything that will limit me learning about the world I live in.


Once again, a Jew is permitted to attend mosque, and anything that Islam permits outsiders to do is permitted to a Jew. A Jew can even pray within a mosque, during Muslim prayer time if the mosque permits it, but must pray Jewish prayers. Islam is staunchly monotheistic. Other religions, not so.

A Jew is also permitted to take classes about other religions for the purpose of general education, or for the purpose of understanding what various religions have in common with Judaism and where there are points of difference with Judaism. In fact, my first rabbi took classes on Christianity so that he would better be able to teach his congregants why Jews aren't, and can't be, Christians. My second rabbi, when I moved to a new area, did his thesis on the sibling-like relationship between Islam and Judaism, comparing the similarities in doctrine and ritual and the commonalities imposed by a closely intertwined history.

However, a Jew should not go to the house of another religion (church, temple, shrine) and take classes there, because most of those classes are taught with conversion in mind, rather than simple sharing of information. To take those classes would be misleading to the teachers there: "I am here to learn about your faith and possibly to become a member" is the silent statement made simply by attending a class at a house of worship. That would be like lying through action. It would also be bringing others to see, "Look, this Jew wants to take on our faith! How faithless are the Jews to their holy heritage!" It makes Jews look bad, and by extension, it even makes Hashem look bad for choosing such a faithless people.

Maybe one does need to attend services in order to learn more completely, but if so, a therapist also needs to have a certain mental illness in order to treat a patient who has it. So maybe a person has to be standing in the bedroom when a couple are having marital relations in order to really believe that they're in love and should be together. So maybe a person has to starve to death before they can understand that there are hungry people in the world who need to be helped and fed. Maybe there can never be a really good veterinarian because they don't have fur or fleas, paws or claws, like their patients do. Maybe it's impossible to say, "Gee, I'm sorry for what I said, because I know it hurt you," because you've never been that other person and you don't actually know from your own experience what that person is feeling.

Silly, right? Of course. You can only see out of your own eyes, touch with your own hands, smell with your own nose -- yet you're sure that if you smell roses, or cake, or rotten eggs, someone else would smell it too. You're sure that when someone else cuts their finger, it hurts; you're sure that when someone is laughing, it's because they feel happiness or humor, just like you do. All of life is about taking what you experience, yourself, and extrapolating based upon it.

Do you need to experience another faith's worship service in order to really understand? Not really. The thing is, in order to have true understanding, you'd have to attend their worship services as a believer, not just as an observer. Being an observer, you'll always be missing part of the experience. Being a believer, well... if you were a believer in Religion X, you wouldn't be trying to convert to Religion J, would you?

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dancing-in-the-streets

PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:39 pm


Divash

Maybe one does need to attend services in order to learn more completely, but if so, a therapist also needs to have a certain mental illness in order to treat a patient who has it. So maybe a person has to be standing in the bedroom when a couple are having marital relations in order to really believe that they're in love and should be together. So maybe a person has to starve to death before they can understand that there are hungry people in the world who need to be helped and fed. Maybe there can never be a really good veterinarian because they don't have fur or fleas, paws or claws, like their patients do. Maybe it's impossible to say, "Gee, I'm sorry for what I said, because I know it hurt you," because you've never been that other person and you don't actually know from your own experience what that person is feeling.

Silly, right? Of course. You can only see out of your own eyes, touch with your own hands, smell with your own nose -- yet you're sure that if you smell roses, or cake, or rotten eggs, someone else would smell it too. You're sure that when someone else cuts their finger, it hurts; you're sure that when someone is laughing, it's because they feel happiness or humor, just like you do. All of life is about taking what you experience, yourself, and extrapolating based upon it.

Do you need to experience another faith's worship service in order to really understand? Not really. The thing is, in order to have true understanding, you'd have to attend their worship services as a believer, not just as an observer. Being an observer, you'll always be missing part of the experience. Being a believer, well... if you were a believer in Religion X, you wouldn't be trying to convert to Religion J, would you?

I would be really interested to hear about the connections between Islam and Judaism; that is a concept I never heard before you. If you would like to tell me more, or point me at websites/books....

Okay, I think there is a jump in logic here. In order to be a veterinarian, one must have contact with the animals. Learning about them in a book doesn't help much toward fixing a broken bone. Seeing them act normally helps to see what is abnormal. You don't have to be a cat to understand what is wrong with one, but it certainly helps if you've been in contact with one at some point before surgery.
You don't have to starve to death to understand hunger. You do, most likely, have to experience hunger to understand what the big deal is. You don't have to watch marital relations to see that a person cares, but there needs be some outward sign, something you can See, or you won't know. And, yeah, it is just fine not knowing. Sometimes. And sometimes it isn't.
I'm not saying I need to sit in the bed watching marital relations, but I would like to see the couple look at each other and smile once in a while and I won't get that from a book. I get that from spending time with them when they are comfortable.
The hurt example...I hope I didn't hurt you with what I said. I know people look at things from different perspectives and see different things. Coffee smells horrible to me when most everyone I know loves it. *as a quick example* I also know that by watching people respond to their faith's teachings, by watching the actual practices of the group, I can see a bit more of what they are seeing. It is almost as much to understand human character as other faiths.

My school doesn't teach with expectation of conversion. It assumes you are already involved in that faith or that you aren't. Religion classes are required of all, not for the sake of conversion but to teach. There is no assumption that I have been able to discern that anyone expects me to become Jesuit.
I dunno. It means alot to me to have the freedom to go to other places of worship and see what they teach and what it means to the people there. It isn't for everyone, but it is for me. I don't really see it as an insult to the religion I ascribe to because I don't see it as being unfaithful to it. We are encouraged to learn about other groups and I see this as an important part of that. (though it isn't explicitly said) I'm trying to convey the importance of this freedom to me, but I"m not sure I"m saying it right so I just keep talking. I'll stop.

I'm not being combative, I'm just kinda spazzing about this because it would be the only real reason for me to not consider conversion. And I was surprised to come across one because...shoot. You guys pretty much got it right. Everything I've been able to find out, anyway. In the search for truth, the most I've been able to find was here. And I'm really sad because this is a dealbreaker for me if I can't get it figured out.
Sigh.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:24 pm


Concerning Islam/Judaism parallels:
I'm not a scholar of Islam, but while you're out in the world, attending many religions' services and talking to believers and learning, make Islam a part of your studies. It's fascinating, too, what you can learn just by Googling for modest clothing. I'm now buying most of my skirts and about half my scarves from Islamic websites like http://www.shukronline.com, and reading their "about us" information is a real eye-opener. For instance, Judaism and Islam have extremely similar laws for slaughtering meat (the only difference is that zabiha/halal slaughterers don't drain quite as much blood out of the meat before selling it or using it).

We also have closely matched laws on modesty, for instance, women's head/hair coverings. Both religions were born in the same area of the world, right up next to each other like neighbors, and both saw the same thing: slaves went naked, while those with more status got a loincloth, and a little more status could earn you a skirt or robe. The higher in status a person was, the more clothing they were permitted to wear. So both Judaism and Islam clearly feel that women are royalty, and should not be open to display for any ol' pair of vulgarity-seeking eyes, but rather, that the beauty of each queen should be reserved solely for her husband-king.

Then, too, both our holy texts contain a telling of the story of Avraham being tested by being asked to sacrifice a son. Judaism tells that Avraham brought Yitzchak (Isaac) up to the mountain, and only disclosed what was to happen when they were up there. However, he did tell his men, "Wait for us here; the boy and I will go and worship, and we will return together." Such was his faith in Hashem, to know that Hashem loved life and would never truly demand his son of him! Islam, though, teaches that Ishmael (Ismail) was the son who went up the mountain with their father. In fact, the Quran states that Avraham (Ibrahim) discussed it with Ismail, who said "Of course, if this is what Allah demands, then it must be done. I am prepared. Let us go."

Concerning studying and experiencing other religions:
As I said, studying in a school, as a part of a class, shouldn't be a big problem, if there is no assumption that one will convert and become a believer and practitioner of that faith.

If freedom to go to other places, take part in their services, and so on is really important to you, I would suggest either doing a lot of that before approaching conversion to Judaism, or simply not converting to Judaism. If you do convert, it will become forbidden to you, and I can tell that would be a great difficulty for you. The thing about Judaism is that it doesn't ask anyone to become Jewish. Being Jewish is for those who are born to it, for the most part. Sincere converts are welcomed if they come to convert, but not actively sought, nor encouraged at all until they've already begun to demonstrate sincerity of purpose. Judaism is hardcore. There are 613 commandments, and they are hard to live by, even to those born to them. A non-Jew who observes the Seven Noachide Laws is just as righteous as a Jew who observes all 613 mitzvot! So why convert? One can be a Torah-believer as a Noachide. One can be close to Hashem as a Noachide. One can attain spiritual fulfillment as a Noachide. Why not be a Noachide?

Especially since you've already found two commandments that would hurt you to obey. Avoiding entering another deity's sacred space is one; avoiding intermarriage (which yours would be, if you converted while your husband didn't) is another. Conversion depends on three things for a woman, and four for a man: (1) Circumcision, for men; (2) bringing a convert's sacrifice, in the time of a standing Temple -- and converts who don't live in the time of a standing Temple are simply under the compunction to bring the sacrifice if the Temple is rebuilt in their time; (3) immersion in a mikvah; and (4) first, foremost, and of primary importance, acceptance of all of the mitzvot, leaving out none for any reason. Since you've got two commandments that would be dealbreakers for you, maybe it's best if you continue as a faithful Noachide.

You don't strike me as being combative at all! It's a little scary, the first time you hear about what each commandment really entails. Sometime, read up on the Shabbat Primer; I've linked to it in the Jewish Information subforum, under the Shabbat Observance thread. I'm telling you, it's hardcore stuff, and it's amazing how heavy it can feel sometimes. Better you should be a non-Jew who's doing even more than is required of you, than become a Jew and not do what you vow upon your conversion that you will do.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:06 pm


Divash
Concerning Islam/Judaism parallels:
I'm not a scholar of Islam, but while you're out in the world, attending many religions' services and talking to believers and learning, make Islam a part of your studies. It's fascinating, too, what you can learn just by Googling for modest clothing. I'm now buying most of my skirts and about half my scarves from Islamic websites like http://www.shukronline.com, and reading their "about us" information is a real eye-opener. For instance, Judaism and Islam have extremely similar laws for slaughtering meat (the only difference is that zabiha/halal slaughterers don't drain quite as much blood out of the meat before selling it or using it).

We also have closely matched laws on modesty, for instance, women's head/hair coverings. Both religions were born in the same area of the world, right up next to each other like neighbors, and both saw the same thing: slaves went naked, while those with more status got a loincloth, and a little more status could earn you a skirt or robe. The higher in status a person was, the more clothing they were permitted to wear. So both Judaism and Islam clearly feel that women are royalty, and should not be open to display for any ol' pair of vulgarity-seeking eyes, but rather, that the beauty of each queen should be reserved solely for her husband-king.

Then, too, both our holy texts contain a telling of the story of Avraham being tested by being asked to sacrifice a son. Judaism tells that Avraham brought Yitzchak (Isaac) up to the mountain, and only disclosed what was to happen when they were up there. However, he did tell his men, "Wait for us here; the boy and I will go and worship, and we will return together." Such was his faith in Hashem, to know that Hashem loved life and would never truly demand his son of him! Islam, though, teaches that Ishmael (Ismail) was the son who went up the mountain with their father. In fact, the Quran states that Avraham (Ibrahim) discussed it with Ismail, who said "Of course, if this is what Allah demands, then it must be done. I am prepared. Let us go."

Concerning studying and experiencing other religions:
As I said, studying in a school, as a part of a class, shouldn't be a big problem, if there is no assumption that one will convert and become a believer and practitioner of that faith.

If freedom to go to other places, take part in their services, and so on is really important to you, I would suggest either doing a lot of that before approaching conversion to Judaism, or simply not converting to Judaism. If you do convert, it will become forbidden to you, and I can tell that would be a great difficulty for you. The thing about Judaism is that it doesn't ask anyone to become Jewish. Being Jewish is for those who are born to it, for the most part. Sincere converts are welcomed if they come to convert, but not actively sought, nor encouraged at all until they've already begun to demonstrate sincerity of purpose. Judaism is hardcore. There are 613 commandments, and they are hard to live by, even to those born to them. A non-Jew who observes the Seven Noachide Laws is just as righteous as a Jew who observes all 613 mitzvot! So why convert? One can be a Torah-believer as a Noachide. One can be close to Hashem as a Noachide. One can attain spiritual fulfillment as a Noachide. Why not be a Noachide?

Especially since you've already found two commandments that would hurt you to obey. Avoiding entering another deity's sacred space is one; avoiding intermarriage (which yours would be, if you converted while your husband didn't) is another. Conversion depends on three things for a woman, and four for a man: (1) Circumcision, for men; (2) bringing a convert's sacrifice, in the time of a standing Temple -- and converts who don't live in the time of a standing Temple are simply under the compunction to bring the sacrifice if the Temple is rebuilt in their time; (3) immersion in a mikvah; and (4) first, foremost, and of primary importance, acceptance of all of the mitzvot, leaving out none for any reason. Since you've got two commandments that would be dealbreakers for you, maybe it's best if you continue as a faithful Noachide.

You don't strike me as being combative at all! It's a little scary, the first time you hear about what each commandment really entails. Sometime, read up on the Shabbat Primer; I've linked to it in the Jewish Information subforum, under the Shabbat Observance thread. I'm telling you, it's hardcore stuff, and it's amazing how heavy it can feel sometimes. Better you should be a non-Jew who's doing even more than is required of you, than become a Jew and not do what you vow upon your conversion that you will do.


Hah. I've been on gaia since 2004 and I still can't divide up quotes. I'll definitely continue learning all I can about Judaism, but you just said what my husband keeps saying about living the seven laws instead of 613 wink And it makes sense, but I really wanted to find out Exactly what would be stopping me from doing this if I really think you guys got it right. If it was something I could change in myself/lifestyle or if it was something else. I like the way you put that-better to be doing more than is expected than less, far as this subject goes.

My current faith teaches the story of Abraham and Isaac as well. They teach that Abraham was willing to follow the will of G-d even to that point, no knowing at all that he would be told to stop moments before the sacrifice. We use it as an example of being willing to give up everything for G-d. *felt like sharing.*

It was funny to hear that ours would be an interfaith marriage (not objecting to the term, really, its true.) because we are really of the same mind on most everything we read and learn in the religion dept. My belief system has more in common with his than it does with our religion most of the time.

I like that description of the need for modesty. My current faith also says modesty is of great importance for girls (not to the point of head coverings, though), but never really gives a reason. I think I'll go with yours smile I really haven't given up on what I believe at all, but I've found that my learning about Judaism enhances what I already have in amounts that would surprise most people.
*laugh* I mentioned what I believe a couple of times in this one. Don't get used to it wink
Is there anything else a faithful Noachide needs to do? Is it just those basic seven? Should I just do those or live as many of the 613 as I can? Or does it make a difference?
I am going to study Islam. I'm really very interested in the fact that you are both considered so closely. Do the Muslim people see Judaism the same way you see them? Maybe I'll track down a guild on here for it, as I've been able to learn massive amounts from this one. *already. And I've only been hanging around a short time*
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:46 am


Re: Modesty
Quote:
My current faith also says modesty is of great importance for girls (not to the point of head coverings, though), but never really gives a reason.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 states the case for head covering with clarity, particularly "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has [something] on his head while praying or prophesying, disgraces his head. But every women who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head." (I Corinthians 11:3-6—NASV) and also 1 Corinthians 11:10 in which Paul writes, διὰ τοῦτο ὀφείλει ἡ γυνὴ ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν ἐπὶ τῆς κεφαλῆς διὰ τοὺς ἀγγέλους. "For this reason the woman should have [a sign of the man's] authority on her head, because of the angels."

So you see, Christianity does have a tradition of head covering for women. This is not, however, for the same reasons as those for Judaism and Islam. For Christianity, as stated plainly in the text, a covered head is a symbol of a woman's submission to her husband's authority. Mind you, I'm not clear on exactly why angels would need to care, but it does state directly in the extended text (1 Corinthians 11:2-16, I'm sure you have a copy somewhere) that the head covering is an outward sign of submission to male authority -- and is not for the sake of modesty, though a covered body is still considered to be for the purpose of modesty.

(Disclaimer: I'm not saying that the Christian text is not valid, or that the Christian philosophy is not valid; I'm only pointing out the fact that even when two faiths require the same action to be taken, for example covering the head and/or hair of a woman, the reasoning and therefore the theology can be totally different and therefore unrelated.)

Being a faithful Noachide
Check out the websites that focus on the Seven Noachide Commandments. The sheva mitzvot (seven commandments) are very simple, yet when one decides to be more and more scrupulous, one can really get into layer after layer of meaning. But starting is very simple, and yes, that's truly all that's required of the extended human family. Focus on those seven, and you'll be doing all that Hashem requires of you. If you can get those going, and choose to add more, that'll be fine too as long as you don't do the ones that are reserved especially for the children of Israel (keeping a perfect Shabbat; eating Passover sacrifice during the time of a standing Temple or the afikomen during the Passover seder during the time of no standing Temple; wearing tallit, kippah, and tzitzit -- look 'em up on Wikipedia).

Islam
Some Muslims see Judaism the way some Jews see Islam, which means there's a spectrum. It goes from "We're practically the same, just like siblings!" to "No, those people mean well, but they're just plain wrong," to "Heathens and infidels!" But yes, there are Muslims who see Judaism the way I personally see Islam. There are also Muslims who see Christianity the way Christians see Islam (within the same general spectrum).

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:02 pm


Divash
Re: Modesty
Quote:
My current faith also says modesty is of great importance for girls (not to the point of head coverings, though), but never really gives a reason.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 states the case for head covering with clarity, particularly "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has [something] on his head while praying or prophesying, disgraces his head. But every women who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head." (I Corinthians 11:3-6—NASV) and also 1 Corinthians 11:10 in which Paul writes, διὰ τοῦτο ὀφείλει ἡ γυνὴ ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν ἐπὶ τῆς κεφαλῆς διὰ τοὺς ἀγγέλους. "For this reason the woman should have [a sign of the man's] authority on her head, because of the angels."


This, right here, is where I get most of my respect for Jews and Judaism. You guys live ALL the laws you claim to be subject to instead of picking and choosing according to politics, popular opinion, or convenience. It would be as difficult, if not more so, to actually practice all the things in the Christian Bible as completely as you guys do. Just saying, your faith/culture/system contains more integrity, plain and simple, than any other I've seen. And I like that.

I will go read those passages, though. Any others I should be pointed to?

btw-it has been awesome having a back and forth conversation about these things. I'll keep posting whenever I get a question. Is this thread still an okay place for it?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:05 am


I'm certainly no scholar of Christian texts, but I'm sure that a pastor or priest could direct you to more texts. Then again, I'm sure the Christian Testament is chock-full of things that aren't addressed all that often in modern churches. If you read it, you'll doubtless find all sorts of things that will either turn you off completely, or renew your fire for the faith, depending on your personal bent.

And yes, this is a great place to keep on asking questions.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:26 pm


Divash
Then again, I'm sure the Christian Testament is chock-full of things that aren't addressed all that often in modern churches. If you read it, you'll doubtless find all sorts of things that will either turn you off completely, or renew your fire for the faith, depending on your personal bent.

That's why I'm here. Because almost nothing apart from Jesus and the role thereof is addressed in most of the Christian churches I've seen. They (in general) believe in the Old Testament but don't really follow it, and only pay attention to what they want out of the New. And, yeah, Christ is important, but there is a whole bunch more in the Bible than that.
Is that what you guys call it? The Christian Testament? How is it regarded within your faith? I would guess not terribly highly, but I am curious. What is the general opinion of Christianity?
*keep asking questions 'cuz I'm trying to not just converse*
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